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Old 12-28-2011, 01:32 PM
 
91 posts, read 59,100 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GREATDIVIDE46 View Post
No, I don't think the Church of Christ draws that distinction. Personally, I don't either. I'm not sure what a spiritual baptism would be all by itself or how one would know they had received it. I can't think of any scripture, off the top of my head, that addresses anything called spiritual baptism.
I offer the following:

1. “I baptize you withwater for repentance. But . . . He will baptize you withthe Holy Spirit and fire. " Matthew 3:11. This same verse is quoted in Mark 1:18, Luke 3:16, and John 1:33.

-Therefore, all four gospels agree that Jesus was sent to baptize with the Holy Spirit.

2. "For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized withthe Holy Spirit.” Acts 1:5.

3. "When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit." Acts 8:14.

-In this example, the spiritual baptism had not yet occurred without the laying on of hands despite having received the water baptism.

4. "While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

Then Peter said, 'Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.' So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days." Acts 10:44-48.

-In this instance, it seems that the spiritual baptism has already occurred because the gentiles were speaking in tongues when there had been no water baptism performed.

5. "For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body". 1 Corinthians 12:13.

Long after the Book of Acts occurred, Paul wrote: "if you declare with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:8-10.

Therefore, I believe that when you do as Paul instructed, you will receive the spritual baptism and be saved. It does not matter if one chooses to be baptized by water or not.

 
Old 12-28-2011, 01:37 PM
 
2,779 posts, read 1,937,688 times
Reputation: 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by GREATDIVIDE46 View Post
I've been in Churches of Christ that had a piano and an organ but never used them because the Lord didn't lead anyone to that church who could play them. It didn't detract from worship at all that the instruments weren't being used. Not that I'm against instruments in worship, but I think some churches carry it a little to the extreme, what with drums, electric guitars, etc. Sometimes the instruments overwhelm the singing.
One thing that does bother me is choirs. Why? Because everyone should be singing praises to God, not just the ones with good singing voices. IMO, there is a line between worshipping God and being entertained. Yes choirs are great to listen to on tv. Very entertaining. But I would think God would want to hear all of His people singing praises to Him, not just some. I can understand a piano being used as an aid to keep everyone together and on key, although I prefer no instruments at all. But we have a church down the road who has a rock band and people are out of their seats dancing. To me, that is crossing the line. That's JMHO.

Katie
 
Old 12-28-2011, 01:41 PM
 
2,779 posts, read 1,937,688 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeyknish View Post
I offer the following:

1. “I baptize you withwater for repentance. But . . . He will baptize you withthe Holy Spirit and fire. " Matthew 3:11. This same verse is quoted in Mark 1:18, Luke 3:16, and John 1:33.

-Therefore, all four gospels agree that Jesus was sent to baptize with the Holy Spirit.

2. "For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized withthe Holy Spirit.” Acts 1:5.

3. "When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit." Acts 8:14.

-In this example, the spiritual baptism had not yet occurred without the laying on of hands despite having received the water baptism.

4. "While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

Then Peter said, 'Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.' So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days." Acts 10:44-48.

-In this instance, it seems that the spiritual baptism has already occurred because the gentiles were speaking in tongues when there had been no water baptism performed.

5. "For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body". 1 Corinthians 12:13.

Long after the Book of Acts occurred, Paul wrote: "if you declare with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:8-10.

Therefore, I believe that when you do as Paul instructed, you will receive the spritual baptism and be saved. It does not matter if one chooses to be baptized by water or not.
Joey,
Do you think it doesn't matter if one chooses to not obey the command of Jesus to be immersed? Can one be saved and not obey His word?
Katie
 
Old 12-28-2011, 02:02 PM
 
91 posts, read 59,100 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Joey,
Do you think it doesn't matter if one chooses to not obey the command of Jesus to be immersed? Can one be saved and not obey His word?
Katie
I don't believe he ever commanded a water baptism.
 
Old 12-28-2011, 02:07 PM
 
241 posts, read 318,054 times
Reputation: 36
As it has already been stated that God allowed some things to go on in the OT. I wouldn't say that it was wrong that David had mechanical instruments of music. But that was the OT. The law has changed (Heb. 7:12). God has commanded us to do things different than what was done in the OT. There's nothing that anyone can do about that. God tells us how He wants to be worshipped and that's the way we have to do it. There may be times when we may not understand why God would want to do it that way, but let's us be mindful of Isa. 55:8-9, our thoughts and ways are not like His thoughts and ways. When you do exactly what God says, then you know you can't go wrong. Go back to Cain and Abel, when they offered their sacrifices to God. Was this worship? Yes. Why didn't God accept Cain's? Because it wasn't by faith. When we worship God, it must be by faith. Well, how does faith come? Rom. 10:17 - so then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. So, when you worship God with the mechanical instruments of music, is it by faith? Is it found within the NT? This is the covenant that we are under. We have to be very careful about putting things into worship just because we may not see how God may not like it. God's word is perfect (Psalms 19:7; James 1:25). It does not need any help. 1 Sam. 15 talks about how God gave commands to Saul thru Samuel to destroy "everything", but Saul "thought within himself" that God wouldn't mind him sparing the best of things. God was not pleased simply because he did not do exactly what was commanded. Rom. 15:4 - the things that were written aforetime were written for our "learning". We are to "learn" from the OT. We are not under the OT, especially when it comes to worship. One more note on music. God put the instruments of music within us (Eze.28:13).
 
Old 12-28-2011, 02:10 PM
 
Location: Coffee County, Alabama
289 posts, read 209,630 times
Reputation: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeyknish View Post
I offer the following:

1. “I baptize you withwater for repentance. But . . . He will baptize you withthe Holy Spirit and fire. " Matthew 3:11. This same verse is quoted in Mark 1:18, Luke 3:16, and John 1:33.

-Therefore, all four gospels agree that Jesus was sent to baptize with the Holy Spirit.
Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. I just don't see where these verses exclude baptism in water. From what I read in scripture it looks to me like Baptism in water and the "baptism" in the Holy Spirit that Jesus does occur simultaneously. In any case, I see no scriptural reason to think that they don't.

Quote:
2. "For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized withthe Holy Spirit.” Acts 1:5.
Certainly true, and they were. However, I'm not convinced that manifesting miraculous gifts of the spirit and baptism with the Holy Spirit are the same thing.

Quote:
3. "When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit." Acts 8:14.

-In this example, the spiritual baptism had not yet occurred without the laying on of hands despite having received the water baptism.
This event does not appear to involve the baptism of the Holy Spirit but the bestowal of miraculous gifts of the Spirit. Whatever was bestowed by the laying on of hands was something that was observable and awesome (see Acts 8:18). Therefore, we can conclude that the Samaritans received the indwelling, regenerating presence of the Holy Spirit when they were baptized in water; subsequently they were given miraculous spiritual gifts when the apostles laid their hands on them.
 
Old 12-28-2011, 02:19 PM
 
91 posts, read 59,100 times
Reputation: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by GREATDIVIDE46 View Post
Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. I just don't see where these verses exclude baptism in water. From what I read in scripture it looks to me like Baptism in water and the "baptism" in the Holy Spirit that Jesus does occur simultaneously. In any case, I see no scriptural reason to think that they don't.


Certainly true, and they were. However, I'm not convinced that manifesting miraculous gifts of the spirit and baptism with the Holy Spirit are the same thing.

This event does not appear to involve the baptism of the Holy Spirit but the bestowal of miraculous gifts of the Spirit. Whatever was bestowed by the laying on of hands was something that was observable and awesome (see Acts 8:18). Therefore, we can conclude that the Samaritans received the indwelling, regenerating presence of the Holy Spirit when they were baptized in water; subsequently they were given miraculous spiritual gifts when the apostles laid their hands on them.
What about Acts 10?

What about Romans 8?

What about the various examples of Jesus giving salvation to people he met while he was still alive?

I think it's a sophmoric distinction to suggest that salvation can be acheived one way while he is alive and another after he was dead.
 
Old 12-28-2011, 02:22 PM
 
Location: Coffee County, Alabama
289 posts, read 209,630 times
Reputation: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeyknish View Post
I offer the following:

4. "While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

Then Peter said, 'Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.' So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days." Acts 10:44-48.

-In this instance, it seems that the spiritual baptism has already occurred because the gentiles were speaking in tongues when there had been no water baptism performed.
It is not clear to me whether the pre-baptismal presence of the Holy Spirit in this instance resulted in conversion (the new birth) at all, or whether it was simply a matter of equipping these individuals with the miraculous ability to speak in tongues. But even if it did involve the new birth, the events are clearly not to be seen as a normal conversion experience but contrary to the normal pattern of conversion. After all, that's what miracles are -- something outside of the norm. Besides these individuals speaking in tongues was not for salvation but to convince the hearers what God's plan was.

Quote:
5. "For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body". 1 Corinthians 12:13.

Long after the Book of Acts occurred, Paul wrote: "if you declare with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:8-10.

Therefore, I believe that when you do as Paul instructed, you will receive the spritual baptism and be saved. It does not matter if one chooses to be baptized by water or not.
I agree that if you do as Paul instructed you will receive the indwelling, regenerating presence of the Holy Spirit. I just don't think this is an exhaustive example of Paul's instructions. Paul assumes that people are baptized in water as part of their conversion in experience. He was not aware of the bifurcation of physical baptism and spiritual baptism that would take place in the 1500's. To Paul there was only one baptism (see Ephesians 4:5) and that baptism included water and the Spirit (see John 3:5).
 
Old 12-28-2011, 02:33 PM
 
241 posts, read 318,054 times
Reputation: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeyknish View Post
I don't believe he ever commanded a water baptism.
Matthew 3:11 states 3 different baptisms: water, Holy Ghost, and fire. Water is what's commanded today. Why? Because this is what God chose according to his own will, no our will. There are scriptures that mention water and there are scriptures that don't mention water verbatim, but the reference of it is there. The Ethiopian eunuch is an example mentioning water. Paul is an example not mentioning water verbatim. Holy Ghost baptism was for certain people (the apostles), at a certain time (from Pentecost to the completion of God's written word), and for a certain purpose (to preach the gospel to every creature, raising the dead, speaking in tougues because of the different languages, & etc.). Fire baptism is the baptism that you don't want. That's hell fire. Yes, I believe that baptism is essential to salvation simply because God said to do it. That's enough for me. But if you want to go further, the bible talks about what all it does, what's received afterwards, where it puts you, and even how it's performed. If it's not essential, then why would God have all of this information about it? Baptism is not a suggestion or an option, but a command by God himself.
 
Old 12-28-2011, 02:39 PM
 
531 posts, read 362,061 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeyknish View Post
What about Acts 10?
Are you talking about the spirit falling on them and they start speaking in tongues? Did that save them? what was the purpose of that?

I submit Acts 11 to the question of what saved them. Peter recounts what Cornelius said as to what the angel said... 13 And he reported to us how he had seen the angel standing in his house, and saying, ‘Send to Joppa and have Simon, who is also called Peter, brought here; 14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’


Now as to the purpose of the spirit falling on them... it was to convince the brethren that accompanied Peter of what Peter himself had just been convinced of in the vision on the rooftop before his trip to cornelius' house. It was a problem in the early church (in rome for one) that the jewish Christians were holding the Gentile Christians to certain aspects of the Law (mosaic). It was their wont to look back, but to look back is to go back to the law and we are under grace now.

Neither jew nor greek.

Acts 10:47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” 48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
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