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Old 12-28-2011, 02:40 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,191,785 times
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Quote:
One thing that does bother me is choirs. Why? Because everyone should be singing praises to God, not just the ones with good singing voices. IMO, there is a line between worshipping God and being entertained. Yes choirs are great to listen to on tv. Very entertaining. But I would think God would want to hear all of His people singing praises to Him, not just some. I can understand a piano being used as an aid to keep everyone together and on key, although I prefer no instruments at all. But we have a church down the road who has a rock band and people are out of their seats dancing. To me, that is crossing the line. That's JMHO.

Katie
Katie, I do want to share that I was speaking to a relative who is an elderly lady and sings in her church choir which is made up of elderly members. She told me that their minister said that their choir could no longer sing because the kinds of songs they sang were not welcomed. I think, meaning, the traditional hymns which is so sad.

The choirs singing can be a form of edification to the rest of the congregation just as a teacher may be teaching a class but I also believe that the worship singing should include all in the congregation and not just those with good singing voices. I do remember being in a coChrist where the singing had to be "redone" several times because people were not on what the director felt was the the right key.

But I do believe that dancing before the Lord, can be a sincere form of worship, as it is expressed in many cultures. David danced before the Lord But again, it can be abused and used as a form of entertainment. People need to be careful. God bless.

 
Old 12-28-2011, 02:43 PM
 
531 posts, read 363,843 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeyknish View Post

What about Romans 8?
great chapter... read it alot... i usually read it in order and Romans 6 is enlightening...
 
Old 12-28-2011, 02:44 PM
 
531 posts, read 363,843 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeyknish View Post
I don't believe he ever commanded a water baptism.
Am i to assume that the Great Commission is referring to Spirit Baptism and not immersion?
 
Old 12-28-2011, 02:53 PM
 
531 posts, read 363,843 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeyknish View Post

What about the various examples of Jesus giving salvation to people he met while he was still alive?

I think it's a sophmoric distinction to suggest that salvation can be acheived one way while he is alive and another after he was dead.
i'm not really sure you understand what you are saying or maybe your point is not coming through clearly...

this is where i am confused... We have to understand what happened after he died. He was raised forever more. He's alive. I know you believe this... but it is of significance to your point.

you say its sophomoric, but that doesn't mean you aren't wrong. you're welcome to your opinion. But before the Cross... we were under the law. On this side of the cross... we are under grace. Jesus has the power to forgive sins. that's the end of that. He did so many times during his life. But he's not walking around now forgiving people of their sins. we have the church He established. There is salvation in no one except Christ. how were sins remitted in the old testament?

In the new testament?

I believe it is sophomoric to be so short-sighted as to not understand the distinctions between the OT and the NT. especially in regard to salvation. Before Christ died... he lived under Mosaic Law. that law was nailed to the cross. we are no longer under the law (tutor).
 
Old 12-28-2011, 02:53 PM
 
91 posts, read 59,422 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GREATDIVIDE46 View Post
It is not clear to me whether the pre-baptismal presence of the Holy Spirit in this instance resulted in conversion (the new birth) at all, or whether it was simply a matter of equipping these individuals with the miraculous ability to speak in tongues. But even if it did involve the new birth, the events are clearly not to be seen as a normal conversion experience but contrary to the normal pattern of conversion. After all, that's what miracles are -- something outside of the norm. Besides these individuals speaking in tongues was not for salvation but to convince the hearers what God's plan was.


I agree that if you do as Paul instructed you will receive the indwelling, regenerating presence of the Holy Spirit. I just don't think this is an exhaustive example of Paul's instructions. Paul assumes that people are baptized in water as part of their conversion in experience. He was not aware of the bifurcation of physical baptism and spiritual baptism that would take place in the 1500's. To Paul there was only one baptism (see Ephesians 4:5) and that baptism included water and the Spirit (see John 3:5).
Let's be clear to set the context. The Book of Romans was basically Paul's gospel. Every word was meticulously chosen because it was his defense to explain why the gentiles should be entitled to salvation, in the same way as the Jews. If the baptism by water was truly critical to salvation, he could have easily included it briefly in these lines. Its omission, however, speaks volumes. Paul was also in and out of various prison cells and he may have been aware of other prisoners who confess with their mouth and believe in their hearts but had no opportunity to be baptized by water.
 
Old 12-28-2011, 02:54 PM
 
91 posts, read 59,422 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atomtkirk View Post
Am i to assume that the Great Commission is referring to Spirit Baptism and not immersion?
Of course. Jesus came to baptize in the spirit. However, it could also refer to immersion as a public demonstration of faith.
 
Old 12-28-2011, 02:59 PM
 
91 posts, read 59,422 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atomtkirk View Post
i'm not really sure you understand what you are saying or maybe your point is not coming through clearly...

this is where i am confused... We have to understand what happened after he died. He was raised forever more. He's alive. I know you believe this... but it is of significance to your point.

you say its sophomoric, but that doesn't mean you aren't wrong. you're welcome to your opinion. But before the Cross... we were under the law. On this side of the cross... we are under grace. Jesus has the power to forgive sins. that's the end of that. He did so many times during his life. But he's not walking around now forgiving people of their sins. we have the church He established. There is salvation in no one except Christ. how were sins remitted in the old testament?

In the new testament?

I believe it is sophomoric to be so short-sighted as to not understand the distinctions between the OT and the NT. especially in regard to salvation. Before Christ died... he lived under Mosaic Law. that law was nailed to the cross. we are no longer under the law (tutor).
No - I wasn't referring to the OT/NT distinctions. Sorry. The lines of debate of become somewhat muddied. I was referring to the distinction raised earlier today about people who met Jesus but were not baptized but still received salvation (the sinner on the cross comes immediately to mind).

I believe it's sophomoric to say that the path to salvation was different for one group of people (prior to Jesus's death) and for another group of people (after his resurrection).
 
Old 12-28-2011, 03:02 PM
 
Location: Coffee County, Alabama
289 posts, read 210,792 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeyknish View Post
Let's be clear to set the context. The Book of Romans was basically Paul's gospel. Every word was meticulously chosen because it was his defense to explain why the gentiles should be entitled to salvation, in the same way as the Jews. If the baptism by water was truly critical to salvation, he could have easily included it briefly in these lines. Its omission, however, speaks volumes. Paul was also in and out of various prison cells and he may have been aware of other prisoners who confess with their mouth and believe in their hearts but had no opportunity to be baptized by water.
I think that all Paul's omission of baptism speaks is his assumption that his readers already understood the place of baptism in their conversion experience and therefore he did not need to mention it. I don't think it says anything at all about whether or not baptism is necessary. It speaks volumes to me that people who want to diminish the Biblical meaning and purpose of baptism invariably choose verses that say nothing at all about baptism to make their points.

Besides Paul did mention baptism in Romans 6:3-4.
 
Old 12-28-2011, 03:05 PM
 
Location: Coffee County, Alabama
289 posts, read 210,792 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeyknish View Post
I believe it's sophomoric to say that the path to salvation was different for one group of people (prior to Jesus's death) and for another group of people (after his resurrection).
Sophomoric or not, those are the facts.
 
Old 12-28-2011, 03:06 PM
 
531 posts, read 363,843 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeyknish View Post
Respectfully disagreed. There are an overwhelming number of examples in the Bible that when read in harmony clearly demonstrate that no water baptism is required for salvation.

"If you declare with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved." Romans 10:9-10. Where is repentance mentioned here? are we saved without repentance?

"Then John gave this testimony: I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’" John 1:32. The great commission had not been given yet. And Christ did not need to be saved. He had no sin.

"Then they asked him, 'What must we do to do the works God requires?'
Jesus answered, 'The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.' John 6:28-29. Be careful quoting this... some on these boards don't believe that faith is a work... I do however... but i do not believe that faith alone saves.

"For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” John 6:35. I do not understand why this is included... no argument here. But we are not saved by one thing to the exclusion of all all the others things that are required and commanded.

In my mind, when I read the New Testament, I believe that the spiritual baptism occurs when a person: (1) declares with his/her mouth that Jesus is Lord; and (2) believes in his/her heart that Jesus was raised from the dead. The water baptism is a symbolic public demonstration of this event.
Then allow me to address one of your later posts... ACTS 10... they'd just been bathed in the spirit. it was very public. Does the spirit descend on those who are unworthy? why another public baptism? probably because it was for another reason.

also... the Eunuch... Philip was the only one there... not very public... also... Philip was taken by the Spirit instantly after immersing him, so instantly, the Eunuch didn't see him afterward. No one he knew personally saw it happen... seems kind of pointless if it is only a public demonstration.

Immersion is so much more than a public demonstration.
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