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Old 12-29-2011, 04:07 PM
 
531 posts, read 362,362 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeyknish View Post

Let me ask you this: are Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, et al, saved?
Let's start with Abram... do you mean before Gen 15:1?

This is confusing to some because it is apples and oranges to parallel this to the salvation of an alien sinner in the NT age... two different ages. Today it is important to know who one becomes a Christian. Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David were not Christians.

 
Old 12-29-2011, 04:15 PM
 
34,731 posts, read 22,539,557 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atomtkirk View Post
well, i'm asking you how you are added to the Church...
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeyknish View Post
You mean to the Vineyard?
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomtkirk View Post
I have no idea how to get into the Vineyard church.
I believe he is referring to Christ as the Vine and the members of His Church are the branches of the vine. The way any branch is added to a vine is by growth . . . in this case growth in "love of God and each other" daily and repenting when we don't (that is the real baptism we must undergo daily as we overcome and endure).
 
Old 12-29-2011, 04:18 PM
 
531 posts, read 362,362 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I believe he is referring to Christ as the Vine and the members of His Church are the branches of the vine. The way any branch is added to a vine is by growth . . . in this case growth in "love of God and each other" daily and repenting when we don't (that is the real baptism we must undergo daily as we overcome and endure).

no... actually it is the Vineyard church. There was a hyperlink a few pages back to look it up if you're interested...
 
Old 12-29-2011, 04:27 PM
 
91 posts, read 59,162 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atomtkirk View Post
I have no idea how to get into the Vineyard church.

I admit that.

I'm talking about Christ's Church. The Church Christ established.

Col 1:24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions.

and...

Col 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

again... we are buried with Him in baptism, (not spiritual baptism) and raised with Him... a new creature. Our physical body has not changed one bit... we're wet... but that'll dry. we have been circumcised. but not with a circumcision made with hands...

clearly God adds those who are saved to the Church.

Therefore... you cannot be saved outside of Christ's body, the Church.

would you agree?
I believe that all Christians are a family and consitute one church, despite the particular denomination one attends.
 
Old 12-29-2011, 04:35 PM
 
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Just to clarify for a second, all anyone "needs" to do to get into the Vineyard is to come as you are, and you will be loved there.
 
Old 12-29-2011, 04:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atomtkirk View Post
Let's start with Abram... do you mean before Gen 15:1?

This is confusing to some because it is apples and oranges to parallel this to the salvation of an alien sinner in the NT age... two different ages. Today it is important to know who one becomes a Christian. Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David were not Christians.
What do you believe happened to these folks upon their death?
 
Old 12-29-2011, 04:57 PM
 
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I was contemplating Roman 6, and I think this would be helpful to the discussion between Atom, Joey, and Chris.

Have you ever read scriptures backwards? I know that sound silly, but bear with me.

Beginning with v22, 22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, ask yourself when and how were you freed from sin.

Verse 17-18 gives you some idea, 17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin Somehow being freed from sin is connected to obeying from the heart that form of teaching to which you were committed. So what is the connection?

Notice v13 says, 13 but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, So how did we go from being dead to being alive?

Verse 8 says, Now if we have died with Christ We died with Christ. How and when did this happen?

Verse 7 tells us, 7 for he who has died is freed from sin. It sounds like when we die, we are freed from sins. So when do we die?

Verse 6 answers us, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, We die when we are crucified with him. That's when sin is done away with. But how can we be crucified with Him?

5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, We can be crucified with Him when we are united with Him in the likeness of His death. And we will be also be in the likeness of His ressurrection. So how can we be united in the likeness of His death and ressurrection?

Verse 4, 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. And here we have our answer. We are united with Him in the likeness of His death and His resurrection when we are buried with Him through baptism.

3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Being buried in baptism is when we are baptized into Jesus' death.

Going back to verses 17-18, we aksed the question, "What is the connection between obeying from the heart that form of teaching, and being set free from sin?"

It's pretty clear that being buried in baptism is obeying from the heart that form of teaching. It is when you are set free from sin.

Hope this helps. As a math teacher, I always worked my problems backwards. I guess it's just the way my brain operates.

Katie

3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 
Old 12-29-2011, 05:24 PM
 
91 posts, read 59,162 times
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Katie, that was some crazy analysis. Much appreciated.

I think it's safe to say that my head hurts. I don't know if I will be posting again in the near future - work will pick up again.

I will leave you all with this concluding thought. I believe that "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved", from the Old Testament Hebrews, to the sinner on the cross, to the centurion, to the Apostles, and to joeyknish ten years ago.

This standard applies to everyone equally. Moreover, "God . . . does not change", so it's really extraordinary that He would require different standards for salvation just based on the era in which one lived. Psalm 55:19.
 
Old 12-29-2011, 05:30 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeyknish View Post
Katie, that was some crazy analysis. Much appreciated.

I think it's safe to say that my head hurts. I don't know if I will be posting again in the near future - work will pick up again.

I will leave you all with this concluding thought. I believe that "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved", from the Old Testament Hebrews, to the sinner on the cross, to the centurion, to the Apostles, and to joeyknish ten years ago.

This standard applies to everyone equally. Moreover, "God . . . does not change", so it's really extraordinary that He would require different standards for salvation just based on the era in which one lived. Psalm 55:19.
Crazy but accurate. Thanks Joey for the great conversation.

I do think you would have tangible assurance of your salvation if you were immersed. Water baptism was commanded by Jesus 2000 years ago. Obedience is what it has always been about, OT and NT from Noah, Abraham, Moes, and so on. That hasn't changed. God not only expects His children to obey. He demands it.

My prayers are with you.

Blessings,

Katie
 
Old 12-29-2011, 05:44 PM
 
Location: Tulsa
2,529 posts, read 3,618,804 times
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I used to be a member of the church of Christ, and during my time on here when I used to debate baptism, I often used these verses. I thought I'd just repost them for the discussion currently going on, even though Joey said he'd probably not be back.


<<I'd like to say that I do not believe the water of baptism saves us, but Jesus' shed blood. I believe we come into contact with that shed blood when we are baptized (Rom 6:3). I also believe that in addition to faith, repenting, confessing, and being baptized, we must also remain faithful.

As for baptism though...

Let's go back to the day of Pentecost. (Acts 2:36-38) When the people asked, what must we do? Did Peter say, just have faith? No, he said, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Or how about all of these that talk about baptism...

Who is saved?
Mark 16:16...He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

What saves us?
I Peter 3:21...The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

How do we call on the name of the Lord?
Acts 22:16...And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

How do we come into contact with Jesus' death, and walk in a new life?
Romans 6:3-4...Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

How do we receive remission of sins?
Acts 22:16...And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

See also Acts 2:38 above.

How do we join the one body of Christ?
1 Cor 12:12-13...For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

How do we put on Christ?
Gal 3:27...For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
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