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Old 12-30-2011, 03:35 PM
 
91 posts, read 57,948 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atomtkirk View Post
Sin is rebellion against God. Only God can determine how sins are forgiven.

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.’

Atonement is satisfaction for an offense. It is how we restore a broken relationship.Hebrews 9:22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Under the old covenant there was atonement through the blood of sacrificed animals. This prefigured the blood of Christ, which would be the ultimate sacrifice for sin.

Hebrews 10:11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins;
Going to get to the New Covenant shortly.

Are we agreed on my Old Covenant definition, or did you have anything else to add to it?

 
Old 12-30-2011, 05:56 PM
 
531 posts, read 354,917 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeyknish View Post
Going to get to the New Covenant shortly.

Are we agreed on my Old Covenant definition, or did you have anything else to add to it?
What is your old covenant definition?

Last edited by atomtkirk; 12-30-2011 at 06:45 PM..
 
Old 12-30-2011, 08:52 PM
 
531 posts, read 354,917 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeyknish View Post
What do you believe happened to these folks upon their death?
i would think that a more important question and more relevant to our discussion would be, "What happened to these folks upon Christ's death?"

now we are getting deep.
 
Old 12-30-2011, 09:06 PM
 
531 posts, read 354,917 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeyknish View Post
I believe that all Christians are a family and consitute one church, despite the particular denomination one attends.
i must disagree. there are many "churches" that take liberties with what is spoken of in the scriptures... I attended a church one time (a very popular denomination- I was just visiting) and a family had come there and wanted to "Join" and the church was asked to raise their hand if they would allow this family to join. of course everyone raised their hands and it was a showing of welcoming... but there is nothing in the scriptures to support a practice like that.

also, the way some churches are structured is in violation of the new testament church. there is no scriptural basis for the organizational structure that some churches employ.

The bible is our only means of validation when it comes to what God wants. Stepping outside of that is dangerous ground that i will not join in.

we must study to rightly divide the word of God. The Berean Church in Acts 17 is a great example of a church that searched the scriptures daily... validating what was said with what God had spoken.

What's more... Denominationalism has a vastly different degree of beliefs present. some believe that Baptism is essential and some do not. One of them is wrong.

I Cor 1:10 Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe’s people, that there are quarrels among you. 12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.” 13 Has Christ been divided?

That's a really good question. the answer scares me when i look at the "churches" today...
 
Old 12-30-2011, 09:31 PM
 
531 posts, read 354,917 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeyknish View Post
Going to get to the New Covenant shortly.

Are we agreed on my Old Covenant definition, or did you have anything else to add to it?
I read this...
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeyknish View Post
Would you also agree with me that the Old Covenant comprises God's promise to forgive the Hebrews by following the laws outlined primarily in Leviticus and Exodus? For example, peope were required to bring him burnt offerings and sacrifices to atone for various sins?
and i want to clarify something i stated in 2 of my previous posts...

the Law (Old Covenant) could not forgive sins. Hebrews 10: 11
The Law (Old Covenant) could not justify. Acts 13:38-39

Again... if the Old Covenant had a way to forgive sins... Christ's death was meaningless. He would have been dying to provide us with something we already had.

if i am mistaken and this is not what you were intending, then i say we agree... however, if you say that the sacrificing of animals forgave sins... then we need to delve deeper into this.
 
Old 12-31-2011, 08:49 AM
 
91 posts, read 57,948 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atomtkirk View Post
What is your old covenant definition?

Okay - That was not articulated very well. Old Covenant equals God's promise to Abraham that he will bless the Jews as long as they follow his commands, ordinances, and laws. However, one of the laws required a burnt sin offering when someone sinned. For example, one could bring a female lamb.

“‘If someone brings a lamb as their sin offering, they are to bring a female without defect. 33 They are to lay their hand on its head and slaughter it for a sin offering at the place where the burnt offering is slaughtered. 34 Then the priest shall take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering and pour out the rest of the blood at the base of the altar. 35 They shall remove all the fat, just as the fat is removed from the lamb of the fellowship offering, and the priest shall burn it on the altar on top of the food offerings presented to the LORD. In this way the priest will make atonement for them for the sin they have committed, and they will be forgiven."

Leviticus 4:32.
 
Old 12-31-2011, 08:57 AM
 
91 posts, read 57,948 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atomtkirk View Post
i must disagree. there are many "churches" that take liberties with what is spoken of in the scriptures... I attended a church one time (a very popular denomination- I was just visiting) and a family had come there and wanted to "Join" and the church was asked to raise their hand if they would allow this family to join. of course everyone raised their hands and it was a showing of welcoming... but there is nothing in the scriptures to support a practice like that.

also, the way some churches are structured is in violation of the new testament church. there is no scriptural basis for the organizational structure that some churches employ.

The bible is our only means of validation when it comes to what God wants. Stepping outside of that is dangerous ground that i will not join in.

we must study to rightly divide the word of God. The Berean Church in Acts 17 is a great example of a church that searched the scriptures daily... validating what was said with what God had spoken.

What's more... Denominationalism has a vastly different degree of beliefs present. some believe that Baptism is essential and some do not. One of them is wrong.

I Cor 1:10 Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe’s people, that there are quarrels among you. 12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.” 13 Has Christ been divided?

That's a really good question. the answer scares me when i look at the "churches" today...
Hrm.

Do you agree that a church is a gathering of two or more people in Jesus's name?

Do you also agree that this gathering will consist of fallible humans, who will have different viewpoints and understandings?

Do you also agree that the Apostles and early Christians clearly had disagreements?
 
Old 12-31-2011, 09:25 AM
 
44 posts, read 37,212 times
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Default Hi!

I got on this post a few days ago by accident. I am amazed how long it has been going {since 2007} Tons of great comments. I am also a member of a church of Christ. The question about what happened to people who died under the OT. I believe the Bible says that the blood of Christ went all the way back to cover everyone.
Since we know that the animal sacrifices only rolled sin over year after year untill Christ would come and make that ultimate sacrifice.

Anyway, Excited about being here and reading the discussions
 
Old 01-01-2012, 06:07 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 12,964,482 times
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Quote:
Do you agree that a church is a gathering of two or more people in Jesus's name?
I do want to share that one thing that was very encouraging and beneficial to me when I was a member of any of the congregations of the coChrist, was when the members met in each others' homes to fellowship, pray, sing songs, have Bible studies. It was a very good way to get to know each other and to build stronger relationships with the brothers and sisters. Just meeting to sing songs together was edifying even when we sang off key God bless.
 
Old 01-01-2012, 10:51 PM
 
531 posts, read 354,917 times
Reputation: 39
Default Sorry for the late response... Potty training a 2 y/O is hard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeyknish View Post
Hrm.

Do you agree that a church is a gathering of two or more people in Jesus's name?--- Matt 18:20

Do you also agree that this gathering will consist of fallible humans, who will have different viewpoints and understandings? Um... no. unless i'm not understanding what you mean by viewpoints and understandings... i'm gonna need an example of what you mean by this... there should be only one viewpoint on matters of doctrine and that's God's. Any honest viewing of the scriptures should take care of different viewpoints and understandings...

Do you also agree that the Apostles and early Christians clearly had disagreements?Oh sure... Paul had to rebuke Peter for the way he was treating some of the brethren.
Don't misunderstand my point. I am speaking from a perspective that believes that all people can read and understand the bible the same way.

Do you believe your preacher or teacher or do you believe the bible? The word of God?

In I Kings there's a story of a Man of God out of judah... and he's given specific instructions by God. these instructions are Eat no Bread, Nor Drink Water, Nor turn again by the same way he came. And after his visit to Jeroboam, He went another way and not by the same way he went to Bethel...

this is in chapter 13:11 where we meet an old prophet in Bethel. He hears of the man of God and goes to see him. He finds him under an oak...

14 So he went after the man of God and found him sitting under an oak; and he said to him, “Are you the man of God who came from Judah?” And he said, “I am.” 15 Then he said to him, “Come home with me and eat bread.” 16 He said, “I cannot return with you, nor go with you, nor will I eat bread or drink water with you in this place. 17 For a command came to me by the word of the LORD, ‘You shall eat no bread, nor drink water there; do not return by going the way which you came.’” 18 He said to him, “I also am a prophet like you, and an angel spoke to me by the word of the LORD, saying, ‘Bring him back with you to your house, that he may eat bread and drink water.’” But he lied to him. 19 So he went back with him, and ate bread in his house and drank water.

You see... the man of God had specific instructions... but here comes a fellow prophet and says..."Oh! its awight! an angel told me it was okay."

BUT HE LIED TO HIM. He told him something that was not true... Now, was he being malicious about this...??? if you read the whole chapter it does not appear so... seems he just REALLY wanted him to come eat with him.

And the man of God does... what happened? He disobeyed God. was God happy?

It was just a little food and a little water?

20 Now it came about, as they were sitting down at the table, that the word of the LORD came to the prophet who had brought him back; 21 and he cried to the man of God who came from Judah, saying, “Thus says the LORD, ‘Because you have disobeyed the command of the LORD, and have not observed the commandment which the LORD your God commanded you, 22 but have returned and eaten bread and drunk water in the place of which He said to you, “Eat no bread and drink no water”; your body shall not come to the grave of your fathers.’” 23 It came about after he had eaten bread and after he had drunk, that he saddled the donkey for him, for the prophet whom he had brought back. 24 Now when he had gone, a lion met him on the way and killed him, and his body was thrown on the road, with the donkey standing beside it; the lion also was standing beside the body. 25 And behold, men passed by and saw the body thrown on the road, and the lion standing beside the body;

God told him what to do. He tells us what to do. you have two different Groups telling people two opposing things about how to please God and be saved... One is wrong. One is lying. One is not telling the truth. That's what a lie is. anything that is not the truth.

Galatians 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed! which is 10 For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.



verse 9 is a repeating of verse 8. I take that to mean it is really important. not too often in the bible is a verse repeated immediately in the following verse. Paul must really want us to get this right.

Last edited by atomtkirk; 01-01-2012 at 11:00 PM..
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