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Old 01-02-2012, 06:40 PM
 
44 posts, read 37,195 times
Reputation: 17

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I consider myself a Christian also. Never heard of the Vineyard church. What part of the country are you in?

 
Old 01-02-2012, 06:42 PM
 
91 posts, read 57,929 times
Reputation: 15
In the mid-Atlantic.
 
Old 01-02-2012, 07:05 PM
 
44 posts, read 37,195 times
Reputation: 17
Well, since i don't really know anything about this denomination i cannot comment on it. I do know that Christ prayed for everyone to be one not divided and that is my prayer.
We should all be looking to break down the walls of division and simply follow the Bible.

I have enjoyed the discussion. Thank you. Moderator cut: delete

Last edited by Miss Blue; 01-02-2012 at 07:42 PM..
 
Old 01-02-2012, 08:06 PM
 
91 posts, read 57,929 times
Reputation: 15
Saltandlight,

Appreciate the nice words. Enjoyed the conversation as well.
 
Old 01-03-2012, 09:16 AM
 
531 posts, read 354,755 times
Reputation: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomtkirk View Post
Don't misunderstand my point. I am speaking from a perspective that believes that all people can read and understand the bible the same way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomtkirk View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeyknish View Post
How is this possible?
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomtkirk View Post
i said we can... not that we do. It is the great work of all believers to read the bible as if they had never read it before. but of course that is impossible... there is no way to read it without any pre-teaching ideas... people are taught wrong. the best example of this is that some are taught water baptism is essential and some are taught that it is not. there's no two ways about it--- one of them is wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeyknish View Post
You all believe fully that there is no scripture to support worship with musical instruments
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomtkirk View Post
___ not in the new covenant(NT Church) and it wasn't introduced in worship for over 600 years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeyknish View Post
I believe that there are scriptures that authorize musical instruments
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomtkirk View Post
__ please post them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeyknish View Post
Is this not a difference in scriptural interpretation?
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Originally Posted by atomtkirk View Post
sure is...
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeyknish View Post
Moreover, Paul clearly states that we are predestined
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomtkirk View Post
--i think i know the verse you are talking about, but for the sake of accuracy, could you post it... --.
Yet, there are examples of faith which show free will. I can get you the verses for each if you like (just pressed on time). Scholars and great thinkers over the generations have been debating this issue. Do you agree that this is a difference in our interpretation of scriptures?
well if we are predestined and we have free will, i think that that means that God has stacked the deck, so to speak--- and i don't believe that is in keeping with certain verses of scripture--- so THAT means that the bible contradicts itself. which it doesn't.

Now when we understand what is meant by predestined... that might clear up the little matter.

first of all we have free will. God did not created robots. This is easily illustrated in pre-flood days... where in Gen 6:5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

if we didn't have free will and God controlled us... then why would he be grieved in His heart? wouldn't He have known what was going to happen? would He have been sorry He even made man?? No... we have free will.

The problem here is that there is an assumption made that if God foreknows all things, then we are pawns in His hand. This is not true. we have free will.

next. predestined... this involves time. God is timeless. He transcends time. God speaks of the future to fit man's thinking... its called anthropomorphism and it means using human language to accommodate man's understanding.

Did God know from the foundation of the world that he would send Jesus to redeem mankind?

I Peter 1
20 For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you

Is God knowing that man would require salvation AND God causing some men to sin and die ... and others to be saved---- the same thing?

No.

matt 11:28 "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.
This is still God's call... and he knows that some will not.

I can tell my son to be a "good boy" over and over, but i know that he will not always be... And i'm just me... think of how overwhelming the knowledge of God is that we cannot understand.

The problem will continue in this matter until there is a differentiation in what God foreknew would happen and what God determined to take place.

Last edited by atomtkirk; 01-03-2012 at 09:29 AM.. Reason: trying to get all the quotes in the right place. sorry.
 
Old 01-03-2012, 10:39 AM
 
91 posts, read 57,929 times
Reputation: 15
There are number of verses that discuss pre-destination/election. I don't really feel like I need to get them for you. I don't believe in pre-destination, but I know many Christians who do. I just wanted to point this out as a difference in interpretation of scriptures.

Also, I can't get into the musical instruments debate again. Already posted my positions to Saltandlight last night.
 
Old 01-03-2012, 11:44 AM
 
531 posts, read 354,755 times
Reputation: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeyknish View Post
There are number of verses that discuss pre-destination/election. I don't really feel like I need to get them for you. I don't believe in pre-destination, but I know many Christians who do. I just wanted to point this out as a difference in interpretation of scriptures.

Also, I can't get into the musical instruments debate again. Already posted my positions to Saltandlight last night.
Well, i'll talk about anything, but since you don't believe in PD then i guess its would be spinning wheels...

I've been on these forums long enough to know that there are wildly different interpretations of scripture. I don't deny that at all... but i'm saying that it is possible to understand them as one. God is not the author of confusion.

and the musical instruments... that's cool with me. I don't use them. And the reason i don't is because there is no NT example of them being used in worship.

-----Just for clarification sake... do you dance in worship?-----

Last edited by atomtkirk; 01-03-2012 at 12:08 PM.. Reason: revised the ending...
 
Old 01-03-2012, 12:39 PM
 
91 posts, read 57,929 times
Reputation: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomtkirk View Post
Well, i'll talk about anything, but since you don't believe in PD then i guess its would be spinning wheels...

I've been on these forums long enough to know that there are wildly different interpretations of scripture. I don't deny that at all... but i'm saying that it is possible to understand them as one. God is not the author of confusion.

and the musical instruments... that's cool with me. I don't use them. And the reason i don't is because there is no NT example of them being used in worship.

-----Just for clarification sake... do you dance in worship?-----
No. And I don't know anyone from my church that dances. I sing my heart out during the songs and, when I feel moved, hold out my hands as a sign of invitation to the Sprit's guidance.
 
Old 01-03-2012, 12:52 PM
 
91 posts, read 57,929 times
Reputation: 15
Also, on my own, I "sing and make music in [my] heart to the Lord" on almost a daily basis. I love to sing worship songs and wish that I had a better voice, so that they would be more tolerable to those around me when there isn't a band playing in the background.
 
Old 01-03-2012, 01:32 PM
 
531 posts, read 354,755 times
Reputation: 39
Default i completely forgot to go back to this over the holiday weekend...sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeyknish View Post
Okay - That was not articulated very well. Old Covenant equals God's promise to Abraham that he will bless the Jews as long as they follow his commands, ordinances, and laws. However, one of the laws required a burnt sin offering when someone sinned. For example, one could bring a female lamb.

“‘If someone brings a lamb as their sin offering, they are to bring a female without defect. 33 They are to lay their hand on its head and slaughter it for a sin offering at the place where the burnt offering is slaughtered. 34 Then the priest shall take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering and pour out the rest of the blood at the base of the altar. 35 They shall remove all the fat, just as the fat is removed from the lamb of the fellowship offering, and the priest shall burn it on the altar on top of the food offerings presented to the LORD. In this way the priest will make atonement for them for the sin they have committed, and they will be forgiven."

Leviticus 4:32.
Leviticus-sacrifices were done continually. Over and over.


Hebrews 10:1 For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. ----These sacrifices were made over and over... the Day of Atonement was an annual day of sacrifices---- 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? ----However, they did still have a consciousness of sins. Why? They weren't really taken away, only overlooked for a time. The punishment was stayed until the next allotted time of sacrifice was made---- 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year. ---- a reminder indicates that they are still there and not fully dealt with----4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.-----However, Christ's blood can.---- 5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, “SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED,
BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME;
6 IN WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND
sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE TAKEN NO PLEASURE.
7 “THEN I SAID, ‘BEHOLD, I HAVE COME
(IN THE SCROLL OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME)
TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.’”


Psalms 40:6 Sacrifice and meal offering You have not desired;
My ears You have opened;
Burnt offering and sin offering You have not required.
7 Then I said, “Behold, I come;
In the scroll of the book it is written of me.
8 I delight to do Your will, O my God;
Your Law is within my heart.”


---Matt 26: 28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins. --also Luke:22
20 And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.

---Luke 24:47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

---Acts 2:Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins;

---Heb 9:22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

---Heb 10:18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.

---I John 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

---Heb 9:15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
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