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Old 01-05-2012, 07:29 AM
 
2,637 posts, read 1,010,167 times
Reputation: 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saltandlight View Post
I would not condemn anyone to Hell if they choose to use mechanical instruments in worship. I will not personally be a part of it, because i don't believe that i see authority in the new testament.

A lot of people use Romans 14 here!

Notice that it starts out with "Accept him who's Faith is WEAK".
The early church was dealing with Jews who we're coming from the old religion that was all physical and worldly into a spiritual kingdom.

More to come!
Hi Saltandlight,

I have been away from the forum for a few days. I just wanted to say thank you for your great posts. I have learned a lot from reading what you, Joey and Atom have written.

I am also a member of the church of Christ, and we do not use musical instruments where I worship. Like you, I wouldn't condemn someone who does use them. I've never really had a strong position on musical instruments one way or the other. I just happened to start out in a congregation who didn't use them. I've gotten so use to not having them, that having instruments seem distracting and almost obnoxious sounding to me. Since following yours and Atom's posts, I feel like I know a lot more than I did before about whether instruments are okay to use in worship. Just wanted to say thanks.

Blessings to you,

Katie

 
Old 01-05-2012, 09:23 AM
 
531 posts, read 199,997 times
Reputation: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Hi Saltandlight,

I have been away from the forum for a few days. I just wanted to say thank you for your great posts. I have learned a lot from reading what you, Joey and Atom have written.

I am also a member of the church of Christ, and we do not use musical instruments where I worship. Like you, I wouldn't condemn someone who does use them. I've never really had a strong position on musical instruments one way or the other. I just happened to start out in a congregation who didn't use them. I've gotten so use to not having them, that having instruments seem distracting and almost obnoxious sounding to me. Since following yours and Atom's posts, I feel like I know a lot more than I did before about whether instruments are okay to use in worship. Just wanted to say thanks.

Blessings to you,

Katie
welcome back, Katie!

This will be the last thing i say on the subject of instrumental music. I know this is not a instrumental music thread... but this is called Church of Christ? so i feel compelled to speak as a member of the Church.

In Leviticus chapter 10 we have an example of two priests going beyond what they were instructed.

1 Now Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took their respective firepans, and after putting fire in them, placed incense on it and offered strange fire before the LORD, which He had not commanded them. 2 And fire came out from the presence of the LORD and consumed them, and they died before the LORD. 3 Then Moses said to Aaron, “It is what the LORD spoke, saying, ‘By those who come near Me I will be treated as holy,
And before all the people I will be honored.’”

God wants to be regarded as HOLY. We have a New Covenant today that was instituted by God. He is Holy.

Now i know that there are those who say that David used instruments in Psalms and Psalms is not a book of the law, however those that lived in the time of David were bound by the Old Covenant. That was the Covenant that they lived under. The things they did or didn't do that were pleasing to God were either commanded or not.

I don't necessarily believe that Nadab and Abihu did this thing because they were immoral men... they were priests. In Leviticus 8 they were consecrated(dedicated to a specific purpose--priesthood). The firepans they used and the incense were both commanded... but what they did was profane. And the Lord consumed them with fire. They both exercised something they should not have in their offering. Presumption. They presumed that they could do what they did. i don't believe that it is reasonable to assume that they set out to anger God.

They overstepped what was commanded. they offered strange fire. We do not live under the old covenant. We live under the new covenant. To go back to the times when the old covenant was in effect and take things from it that are not specifically mentioned or commanded in the New Testament church, is viewed by the Church of Christ as going beyond what we have been given as an example in scripture. Also going back to the old covenant was a big problem in the early church as well, when the Jews were trying to force the Gentile converts to accept circumcision-- something that was commanded under the old covenant. WE have a new circumcision now... one made without hands.

People ask me all the time if i think using instruments in worship will condemn others to hell... I always ask them the same thing, "Am I in the place of God?" basically to say, it is not up to me to say who is going to hell and who isn't. It is up to me, and it is the duty of all those who profess Christ, to study to show yourself approved... rightly dividing the Word of God.

this isn't to start this back up, it is just a statement of why the Church of Christ does not use them. this is not an official creed either... just a more detailed explanation of the standard answer of, 'there is no NT example of the Church using it in the NT... and ... Instruments were not introduced into Christian worship till the 7th century." Over 600 years they were not used. You'd think that the NT church would have a pretty good handle on what they could do. Especially since instruments were clearly available... easily could have been used in worship. however, no mention of them.

we are the instruments of God.

The absence of instrumental music in the NT is very significant... especially given the abundant references to it in the OT.

again... this is just informative to anyone who wanted to know.
 
Old 01-05-2012, 12:43 PM
 
2,637 posts, read 1,010,167 times
Reputation: 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomtkirk View Post
welcome back, Katie!

This will be the last thing i say on the subject of instrumental music. I know this is not a instrumental music thread... but this is called Church of Christ? so i feel compelled to speak as a member of the Church.

In Leviticus chapter 10 we have an example of two priests going beyond what they were instructed.

1 Now Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took their respective firepans, and after putting fire in them, placed incense on it and offered strange fire before the LORD, which He had not commanded them. 2 And fire came out from the presence of the LORD and consumed them, and they died before the LORD. 3 Then Moses said to Aaron, “It is what the LORD spoke, saying, ‘By those who come near Me I will be treated as holy,
And before all the people I will be honored.’”

God wants to be regarded as HOLY. We have a New Covenant today that was instituted by God. He is Holy.

Now i know that there are those who say that David used instruments in Psalms and Psalms is not a book of the law, however those that lived in the time of David were bound by the Old Covenant. That was the Covenant that they lived under. The things they did or didn't do that were pleasing to God were either commanded or not.

I don't necessarily believe that Nadab and Abihu did this thing because they were immoral men... they were priests. In Leviticus 8 they were consecrated(dedicated to a specific purpose--priesthood). The firepans they used and the incense were both commanded... but what they did was profane. And the Lord consumed them with fire. They both exercised something they should not have in their offering. Presumption. They presumed that they could do what they did. i don't believe that it is reasonable to assume that they set out to anger God.

They overstepped what was commanded. they offered strange fire. We do not live under the old covenant. We live under the new covenant. To go back to the times when the old covenant was in effect and take things from it that are not specifically mentioned or commanded in the New Testament church, is viewed by the Church of Christ as going beyond what we have been given as an example in scripture. Also going back to the old covenant was a big problem in the early church as well, when the Jews were trying to force the Gentile converts to accept circumcision-- something that was commanded under the old covenant. WE have a new circumcision now... one made without hands.

People ask me all the time if i think using instruments in worship will condemn others to hell... I always ask them the same thing, "Am I in the place of God?" basically to say, it is not up to me to say who is going to hell and who isn't. It is up to me, and it is the duty of all those who profess Christ, to study to show yourself approved... rightly dividing the Word of God.

this isn't to start this back up, it is just a statement of why the Church of Christ does not use them. this is not an official creed either... just a more detailed explanation of the standard answer of, 'there is no NT example of the Church using it in the NT... and ... Instruments were not introduced into Christian worship till the 7th century." Over 600 years they were not used. You'd think that the NT church would have a pretty good handle on what they could do. Especially since instruments were clearly available... easily could have been used in worship. however, no mention of them.

we are the instruments of God.

The absence of instrumental music in the NT is very significant... especially given the abundant references to it in the OT.

again... this is just informative to anyone who wanted to know.
Thanks Atom. From what Joey said, I got the impression from him that he thought psalms had to be accompanied by music. When he quoted the verse from Ephesians about singing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs, I think he was saying this is our authority for using instruments. I don't think Paul meant that. I think he was simply making a distinction between psalms, hyms and spiritual songs. What the difference is I do not know. Any ideas? I just know that we are to make music in our hearts.

Anyway, you're right. I need to study this out more, and I will. It's just that other topics of study always seem a priority.

As for condemning anyone for using instruments, I don't do that, but then I don't condemn anyone for anything. Not my job. But when I know something to be scripturally wrong, I will point it out.

Kate

Last edited by katiemygirl; 01-05-2012 at 12:51 PM..
 
Old 01-05-2012, 02:40 PM
 
531 posts, read 199,997 times
Reputation: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeyknish View Post
No. And I don't know anyone from my church that dances. I sing my heart out during the songs and, when I feel moved, hold out my hands as a sign of invitation to the Sprit's guidance.

good to know...

i only asked because in other discussions with people who have told me similar things about authority of instruments in worship, i often ask them about:

Psalm 150

1 Praise the LORD!
Praise God in His sanctuary;
Praise Him in His mighty expanse.
2 Praise Him for His mighty deeds;
Praise Him according to His excellent greatness.
3 Praise Him with trumpet sound;
Praise Him with harp and lyre.
4 Praise Him with timbrel and dancing;
Praise Him with stringed instruments and pipe.

5 Praise Him with loud cymbals;
Praise Him with resounding cymbals.
6 Let everything that has breath praise the LORD.
Praise the LORD!




it also says so in Psalm 149:3 Let them praise His name with dancing;
Let them sing praises to Him with timbrel and lyre.



I've always wanted to know why those who find authority for instruments in these scriptures don't dance. If this is their criteria for worship...


I've never gotten a great answer. just wondering.
 
Old 01-05-2012, 03:40 PM
 
Location: Tulsa
2,529 posts, read 2,538,204 times
Reputation: 537
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomtkirk View Post
good to know...

i only asked because in other discussions with people who have told me similar things about authority of instruments in worship, i often ask them about:

Psalm 150

1 Praise the LORD!
Praise God in His sanctuary;
Praise Him in His mighty expanse.
2 Praise Him for His mighty deeds;
Praise Him according to His excellent greatness.
3 Praise Him with trumpet sound;
Praise Him with harp and lyre.
4 Praise Him with timbrel and dancing;
Praise Him with stringed instruments and pipe.

5 Praise Him with loud cymbals;
Praise Him with resounding cymbals.
6 Let everything that has breath praise the LORD.
Praise the LORD!




it also says so in Psalm 149:3 Let them praise His name with dancing;
Let them sing praises to Him with timbrel and lyre.



I've always wanted to know why those who find authority for instruments in these scriptures don't dance. If this is their criteria for worship...


I've never gotten a great answer. just wondering.
I don't know if you've read any of my posts in here, but I was a member of the cofC for many years.

Most don't use the book of Psalms to prove authority. They use Eph. 5:19. They are pointing out it was said to speak to one another in psalms, which means, a song accompanied by instrumental music. So, the bible says it's ok.

I already know what argument you will come back with, but I'm telling you why others believe it makes it ok.
 
Old 01-05-2012, 04:32 PM
 
2,637 posts, read 1,010,167 times
Reputation: 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by mzjamiedawn View Post
I don't know if you've read any of my posts in here, but I was a member of the cofC for many years.

Most don't use the book of Psalms to prove authority. They use Eph. 5:19. They are pointing out it was said to speak to one another in psalms, which means, a song accompanied by instrumental music. So, the bible says it's ok.

I already know what argument you will come back with, but I'm telling you why others believe it makes it ok.
Jamie, I answered your DM but never got a response. Just wondering if you got it.

Kate
 
Old 01-05-2012, 04:51 PM
 
531 posts, read 199,997 times
Reputation: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by mzjamiedawn View Post
I don't know if you've read any of my posts in here, but I was a member of the cofC for many years.

Most don't use the book of Psalms to prove authority. They use Eph. 5:19. They are pointing out it was said to speak to one another in psalms, which means, a song accompanied by instrumental music. So, the bible says it's ok.

I already know what argument you will come back with, but I'm telling you why others believe it makes it ok.
Well, Joey states that OT forms of worship were not fulfilled, done away with in the new covenant, so that is what I was addressing. I'm aware that he finds words speaking of psalms in Ephesians --- like you referenced. But I was addressing the OT form of worship in my most recent posts to him. He has already stated he wants his previous posts to speak on the matter of instrumental music. I was just trying to get an answer to my question.

If you were once a member of the Church then we probably know the arguments pretty well. This is more of an OT and NT thing...

Thanks!
 
Old 01-05-2012, 06:32 PM
 
Location: Tulsa
2,529 posts, read 2,538,204 times
Reputation: 537
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Jamie, I answered your DM but never got a response. Just wondering if you got it.

Kate
Oh my goodness Kate, I did, and then left, and totally forgot to go back and respond! I'm so sorry, will now!

Quote:
Originally Posted by atomtkirk View Post
Well, Joey states that OT forms of worship were not fulfilled, done away with in the new covenant, so that is what I was addressing. I'm aware that he finds words speaking of psalms in Ephesians --- like you referenced. But I was addressing the OT form of worship in my most recent posts to him. He has already stated he wants his previous posts to speak on the matter of instrumental music. I was just trying to get an answer to my question.

If you were once a member of the Church then we probably know the arguments pretty well. This is more of an OT and NT thing...

Thanks!
Got it
 
Old 01-05-2012, 09:41 PM
 
531 posts, read 199,997 times
Reputation: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeyknish View Post

So, then I suggest that the Psalms (and other similar books from the OT) were not fulfilled by Jesus as part of the New Covenant. Therefore, the OT form of worship was not fulfilled by the New Covenant. It was the Old Testament laws that were.
just wanted to address this... can't believe i didn't see this.

But you are probably already aware of the scriptures mentioning Psalms as part of the Law. Jesus made the statement in John 10:34 Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I SAID, YOU ARE GODS’?

this is a reference to Psalms 82:6 I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are sons of the Most High.

and there's the other references...

In John 15:25 But they have done this to fulfill the word that is written in their Law, ‘THEY HATED ME WITHOUT A CAUSE.

this is a reference to two different mentionings in Psalms... one in:

35:19 Do not let those who are wrongfully my enemies rejoice over me;
Nor let those who hate me without cause wink maliciously.

and 69:4 Those who hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of my head; Those who would destroy me are powerful, being wrongfully my enemies; What I did not steal, I then have to restore.

the scriptures also point to other references to matters of the "Law" with quotes from other books that are not considered books of the law, such as psalms. but clearly Christ points to them as books of the Law. There are prophecies in Psalms about Christ's life... they were fulfilled.

Psalm 22:16 For dogs have surrounded me;
A band of evildoers has encompassed me;
They pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I can count all my bones.
They look, they stare at me;
18 They divide my garments among them,
And for my clothing they cast lots.

Matt 27:35 fulfilled this.
 
Old 01-06-2012, 07:24 AM
 
2,637 posts, read 1,010,167 times
Reputation: 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomtkirk View Post
good to know...

i only asked because in other discussions with people who have told me similar things about authority of instruments in worship, i often ask them about:

Psalm 150

1 Praise the LORD!
Praise God in His sanctuary;
Praise Him in His mighty expanse.
2 Praise Him for His mighty deeds;
Praise Him according to His excellent greatness. 3 Praise Him with trumpet sound;
Praise Him with harp and lyre.
4 Praise Him with timbrel and dancing;
Praise Him with stringed instruments and pipe.
5 Praise Him with loud cymbals;
Praise Him with resounding cymbals.
6 Let everything that has breath praise the LORD.
Praise the LORD!



it also says so in Psalm 149:3 Let them praise His name with dancing;
Let them sing praises to Him with timbrel and lyre.


I've always wanted to know why those who find authority for instruments in these scriptures don't dance. If this is their criteria for worship...


I've never gotten a great answer. just wondering.
Very good post Atom.

I've never thought about this until now. So for those who think Psalms authorizes musical instruments, they should also be dancing during their worship.

Question: Many OT characters did things that were not authorized by God. Is there any scripture that shows God's authorization for musical instruments or dancing in the OT? Or is this something people just did because they wanted to? Just curious.

Katie
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