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It is your church that does not authorize not the scripture.
COL 2:20 "Wherefore if you be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are you subject to ordinances,
COL 2:21 "[Touch not; taste not; handle not;
COL 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using;] after the commandments and doctrines of men?
COL 2:23 Which things have indeed a show of wisdom in will worship,"
Your command to not use instuments came from the doctrines of men, not the scripture
It is also written, "All things are pure to the pure at heart" and lawful when used in moderation. To deny one self what is lawful is only will worship not a commandment from the Lord.
Sorry Katie but on this one you are far out there if you are telling others the way to worship is only your way and using scripture to support your declarations. Sacrifices of animals in no way equate with worship using instruments of music today. On spiritual matters Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. He gives talents to be used. You can do what you want because it is no sin not to use instruments of music but your near calling it sin for us who are blessed by the Holy Spirit when we have anointed music with instruments in our churches.
There is no commandment not to use instruments. You have shown your self very intelligent and now you are making things up and I am surprised and shocked to say the least. And the idea that you think others will stand out is nothing but judgeing the others purity of heart or not. 1COR 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
There is no command to use or not use instruments. The NT is silent about it. There is no example of instruments being used in the NT church. There isn't even an inference , nothing to suggest the use of instruments. The church of Christ follows the example of the NT church in worship and organization.
If you are comfortable using instruments, then use them. I just choose not to. I condemn no one who does use them. I don't know any church of Christ member who does.
Just so we're clear, I never said or even suggested any kind of commandment one way or the other about musical instruments in worship. I am simply saying there is no authority, example, or inference that I am aware of.
Not having musical instruments in worship is my personal choice. I find them to be distracting and obnoxious sounding. I love hearing the voices of my brethren. But if music is what you prefer, then who am I to tell you different.
This is what I love about the church of Christ. We are autonomous, but we are still brothers and sisters in Christ. Some churches of Christ have music; some do not. I have been with my congregation over 30 years. From the beginning, there was no music. To the best of my knowledge, the only thing anyone in the group can play is the radio.
There is no command to use or not use instruments. The NT is silent about it. There is no example of instruments being used in the NT church. There isn't even an inference , nothing to suggest the use of instruments. The church of Christ follows the example of the NT church in worship and organization.
If you are comfortable using instruments, then use them. I just choose not to. I condemn no one who does use them. I don't know any church of Christ member who does.
Just so we're clear, I never said or even suggested any kind of commandment one way or the other about musical instruments in worship. I am simply saying there is no authority, example, or inference that I am aware of.
Not having musical instruments in worship is my personal choice. I find them to be distracting and obnoxious sounding. I love hearing the voices of my brethren. But if music is what you prefer, then who am I to tell you different.
This is what I love about the church of Christ. We are autonomous, but we are still brothers and sisters in Christ. Some churches of Christ have music; some do not. I have been with my congregation over 30 years. From the beginning, there was no music. To the best of my knowledge, the only thing anyone in the group can play is the radio.
Katie
Fair enough to say it is only your personal choice. I myself do not like a lot of music or singing but I do like some. At the last supper they sang one hymn and then went their way. Some times churches do put too much into song after song for my personal taste but I bear with it. I can't carry a tune for the most part. LOL. Blessings to you.
It is also written, "All things are pure to the pure at heart" and lawful when used in moderation. To deny one self what is lawful is only will worship not a commandment from the Lord.
That passage out of Titus is out of context. You categorically, cannot use this as a message that all things can be lawful for a Christian...
Do you have any idea what a can of worms you open up when you imply that? Titus is referring primarily to a specific type of group (those of the circumcision).
That passage out of Titus is out of context. You categorically, cannot use this as a message that all things can be lawful for a Christian...
Do you have any idea what a can of worms you open up when you imply that? Titus is referring primarily to a specific type of group (those of the circumcision).
I have implied nothing of the sort. That scripture stands by itself. It is an injection of a truth along with the other things that Paul said in that book. It is you who are opening up a can of worms.
A pure mind can interpret it properly to know that sex but within a marriage, drinking and eating to moderation and a host of other things are lawful if used lawfully. Drugs are for our benefit if administered by a Doctor. Things can be used for benefit or abused. These and I suppose other things are what that Scripture is talking about. I or Saint Paul are not responsible for a false interpretation that any thing goes. That is your interpretation of what I use that scripture for but you are wrong to assume that.
I've never thought about this until now. So for those who think Psalms authorizes musical instruments, they should also be dancing during their worship.
Question: Many OT characters did things that were not authorized by God. Is there any scripture that shows God's authorization for musical instruments or dancing in the OT? Or is this something people just did because they wanted to? Just curious.
Katie
Well, I for one do dance [61 now] but at home and sing songs to music or solo and sometimes with my grandchildren. They love it because God is Love. It is a great way to Worship and I am so Blessed. His Blessings when I do are authorization enough for me. Try it, you might will like it, at least at home!
I might dance at church if people were not so stuffy and judgmental. I have at times in the past where people are of a like mind and I was Blessed and no man could take it away.
No one answered your post, but I will add additional thoughts to it.
Too, Colossians 3:16 says to "...admonish one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs."
Revelation 15:2 says the saints "held harps given them by God".
Psalm in the Greek (Strongs #5568) means "a set piece of music, i.e. a sacred ode (accompanied with the voice, harp or other instrument)." The root word "psalm" in Greek is "psallo", which means to twitch, twang or pluck, such as pluck a string of a musical instrument.
Why would God give the saints harps, if they were not to be used to worship and give glory to Him?
Some people go as far to say that musical instruments are the work of Satan. How absurd.
Psallo.
would you agree that word meanings change over the centuries?
I hope so, because they do. the Psallo argument has been largely abandoned by those who try to use it to say that it authorizes musical instruments in worship.
Words are not static things... they change. for example... you walk up to my grandfather and say, "My Bad!" he'd say, "What's wrong with you."
So let's get into Psallo...
900 B.C. (the time of Homer) to 330 B.C.--- During this time psallo carried the basic sense of “to touch sharply, to move by touching, to pull, twitch”.
525-456 B.C.--- the Greek playwright, used the word of “plucking hair” Euripides (480-460 B.C.?), another Greek writer, spoke of “twanging” the bowstring.
Psallo was used of “twitching” the carpenter’s line so as to leave a mark (Anthologia Palatine).
Also, in Plutarch the verb also could convey the sense of “plucking” the strings of an instrument.
Now... clearly at this point... no problems have arised... there is a touching of "things".
But what does that word "Psallo" mean in the NT...?
The Septuagint (LXX) is a Greek translation of the Old Testament that dates from the 3rd century B.C. In this production, psallo is used to represent three different Hebrew words. The term may be used to denote simply the playing of an instrument (1 Sam. 16:16). It may bear the sense of singing, accompanied by an instrument (as certain contexts reveal – cf. Psa. 27:6; 98:5 – Eng. versions). Or, the word may refer to vocal music alone (cf. Psa. 135:3; 138:1; 146:2).
so... Instruments did not inhere in the word psallo in the Septuagint
now...
In 1885 A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament was published, which reflected Thayer’s translation, revision, and enlargement of an earlier work involving the labors of C.G. Wilke and C.L.W. Grimm. In its day, Thayer’s work was the finest lexicon available, and still is of considerable value.
In discussing psallo, after commenting upon the word’s use in classical Greek, and in the Septuagint, he notes that "in the N.T. [psallo signifies] to sing a hymn, to celebrate the praises of God in song. . . " (p. 675).
then...
The first edition of W.E. Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words was issued in 1940 in four volumes. In 1952 a one-volume edition was published. F.F. Bruce, Head of the Department of Biblical History and Literature at the University of Sheffield, wrote the Foreword for that production. Therein, Prof. Bruce praised Vine’s work. He stated that the “Greek scholarship was wide, accurate and up-to-date.” He noted that the author had a “thorough mastery of the classical idiom,” a “close acquaintance with the Hellenistic vernacular,” and an awareness of the influence of the Septuagint upon the New Testament.
In his popular work, Vine, in commenting upon psallo (under “Melody”), notes the classical sense, the Septuagint usage, and then says: “… in the N.T., to sing a hymn, sing praise” (1997, p. 730).
In another book, Vine explained the matter more fully.
“The word psallo originally meant to play a stringed instrument with the fingers, or to sing with the accompaniment of a harp. Later, however, and in the New Testament, it came to signify simply to praise without the accompaniment of an instrument” (1951, p. 191 – emp. added).
In 1964. the prestigious Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (edited by Kittel, Friedrich, and Bromiley) issued from the press. The article which dealt with psallo was written by Gerhard Delling. Relative to Ephesians 5:19, Delling contended that the literal use of psallo, as “found in the LXX, is now employed figuratively” (Kittel, et al., p. 499).
In an abridgement of this work, published in 1985, Bromiley expressed it this way: “. . . psallontes does not now denote literally playing on a stringed instrument” (p. 1226).
In the revised edition of the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, David Howard of Bethel Theological Seminary, commented upon psallo.
“Psallo originally meant to play a stringed instrument; in the LXX it generally translates zimmer and ngn. In the NT it refers to singing God’s praises (not necessarily accompanied by strings)” (p. 314).
In the Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament, Balz and Schneider write: “In the NT psallo always refers to a song of praise to God” (p. 495).
In his popular work, Word Meanings in the New Testament, Ralph Earle comments on psallo in Ephesians 5:19.
“‘Making melody’ is one word in Greek, psallontes. The verb psallo meant first to strike the strings of a harp or lyre. Then it meant to ‘strike up a tune.’ Finally it was used in the sense ‘to sing’” (p. 333).
These men that are being quoted are not members of the Church of Christ. Look them up and find out more about them...
would you agree that word meanings change over the centuries?
I hope so, because they do. the Psallo argument has been largely abandoned by those who try to use it to say that it authorizes musical instruments in worship.
Words are not static things... they change. for example... you walk up to my grandfather and say, "My Bad!" he'd say, "What's wrong with you."
So let's get into Psallo...
900 B.C. (the time of Homer) to 330 B.C.--- During this time psallo carried the basic sense of “to touch sharply, to move by touching, to pull, twitch”.
525-456 B.C.--- the Greek playwright, used the word of “plucking hair” Euripides (480-460 B.C.?), another Greek writer, spoke of “twanging” the bowstring.
Psallo was used of “twitching” the carpenter’s line so as to leave a mark (Anthologia Palatine).
Also, in Plutarch the verb also could convey the sense of “plucking” the strings of an instrument.
Now... clearly at this point... no problems have arised... there is a touching of "things".
But what does that word "Psallo" mean in the NT...?
The Septuagint (LXX) is a Greek translation of the Old Testament that dates from the 3rd century B.C. In this production, psallo is used to represent three different Hebrew words. The term may be used to denote simply the playing of an instrument (1 Sam. 16:16). It may bear the sense of singing, accompanied by an instrument (as certain contexts reveal – cf. Psa. 27:6; 98:5 – Eng. versions). Or, the word may refer to vocal music alone (cf. Psa. 135:3; 138:1; 146:2).
so... Instruments did not inhere in the word psallo in the Septuagint
now...
In 1885 A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament was published, which reflected Thayer’s translation, revision, and enlargement of an earlier work involving the labors of C.G. Wilke and C.L.W. Grimm. In its day, Thayer’s work was the finest lexicon available, and still is of considerable value.
In discussing psallo, after commenting upon the word’s use in classical Greek, and in the Septuagint, he notes that "in the N.T. [psallo signifies] to sing a hymn, to celebrate the praises of God in song. . . " (p. 675).
then...
The first edition of W.E. Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words was issued in 1940 in four volumes. In 1952 a one-volume edition was published. F.F. Bruce, Head of the Department of Biblical History and Literature at the University of Sheffield, wrote the Foreword for that production. Therein, Prof. Bruce praised Vine’s work. He stated that the “Greek scholarship was wide, accurate and up-to-date.” He noted that the author had a “thorough mastery of the classical idiom,” a “close acquaintance with the Hellenistic vernacular,” and an awareness of the influence of the Septuagint upon the New Testament.
In his popular work, Vine, in commenting upon psallo (under “Melody”), notes the classical sense, the Septuagint usage, and then says: “… in the N.T., to sing a hymn, sing praise” (1997, p. 730).
In another book, Vine explained the matter more fully.
“The word psallo originally meant to play a stringed instrument with the fingers, or to sing with the accompaniment of a harp. Later, however, and in the New Testament, it came to signify simply to praise without the accompaniment of an instrument” (1951, p. 191 – emp. added).
In 1964. the prestigious Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (edited by Kittel, Friedrich, and Bromiley) issued from the press. The article which dealt with psallo was written by Gerhard Delling. Relative to Ephesians 5:19, Delling contended that the literal use of psallo, as “found in the LXX, is now employed figuratively” (Kittel, et al., p. 499).
In an abridgement of this work, published in 1985, Bromiley expressed it this way: “. . . psallontes does not now denote literally playing on a stringed instrument” (p. 1226).
In the revised edition of the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, David Howard of Bethel Theological Seminary, commented upon psallo.
“Psallo originally meant to play a stringed instrument; in the LXX it generally translates zimmer and ngn. In the NT it refers to singing God’s praises (not necessarily accompanied by strings)” (p. 314).
In the Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament, Balz and Schneider write: “In the NT psallo always refers to a song of praise to God” (p. 495).
In his popular work, Word Meanings in the New Testament, Ralph Earle comments on psallo in Ephesians 5:19.
“‘Making melody’ is one word in Greek, psallontes. The verb psallo meant first to strike the strings of a harp or lyre. Then it meant to ‘strike up a tune.’ Finally it was used in the sense ‘to sing’” (p. 333).
These men that are being quoted are not members of the Church of Christ. Look them up and find out more about them...
Some people just go out of their way to kill joy. What a shame.
Your command to not use instuments came from the doctrines of men, not the scripture
It is also written, "All things are pure to the pure at heart" and lawful when used in moderation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by garya123
I have implied nothing of the sort. That scripture stands by itself.
here is where you implied it. by adding a little extra to the end of the passage out of Titus. Read the chapter and you'll see. if the scripture stands by itself, then why did you add the stuff about "in moderation"?
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