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Old 07-05-2008, 12:50 AM
 
348 posts, read 554,946 times
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Announcements, two songs, a prayer, a song, another song to "prepare our minds," the Lord's Supper, the collection, the sermon, an invitation song, closing remarks, closing song, and a closing prayer. Ceremony and ritualism. This is another form of the Catholic Church.

I think that one reason we succumb to ceremony and ritualism is because of the insistence to own and meet in a "church-building." Look at the arrangement in the auditorium. All the seats in theater style, facing the front (stage?). In a lot of places, there is a spotlight fixed at the location of the preacher or master of ceremonies. This tends to focus all attention on the one who is "performing." The seating arrangement discourages any interaction between the members. In fact, even whispering may illicit a resounding rebuke. After dismissal, a person does get the idea that he/she has "attended a service," instead of "participating" and "serving."

The disciples met in their houses. Jesus promised that even where two or three come together, He will be in their midst. The practice of building a special place for the group did not become the norm until the early Fourth Century. In these smaller, more intimate gatherings, there was no call for formalism, ceremony, or ritualism. The saints came together to visit and to encourage each other in the faith. Sometimes, someone would have a spiritual song or psalm to share, someone else prayed. They often came together to eat a common meal. There was no set pattern. God has not revealed one. Coming together in this fashion allowed them to really know each other and to discover ways they could minister to each other.

Meeting this way in houses carried other advantages. There were no collections of money for payments on properties, maintenance, and utilities. There were no squabbles over who owned or controlled the building. There were no signs to put up, therefore, no need to "name the group." There was no need for a "church treasury," something completely foreign to the New Testament scriptures. The early Christians were admonished to put money aside AT HOME, in case an opportunity to exercise benevolence came along (1 Cor. 16:1-3).


1 Corinthians 6:16-18 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will dwell in them And walk among [them.] I will be their God, And they shall be My people." Therefore "Come out from among them And be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you." "I will be a Father to you, And you shall be My sons and daughters, Says the LORD Almighty.

 
Old 07-05-2008, 03:25 AM
 
13,640 posts, read 24,420,525 times
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Good post Hiram..If you read our recent book thread it was about this very subject ..Home meetings of the church, where Christ is the 'head' of the meeting, and everyone is able to participate in worship by sharing their gifts of the holy spirit. That is the way the early church worshipped and shared together..
 
Old 07-05-2008, 12:05 PM
 
348 posts, read 554,946 times
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Post breaking bread

Quote:
Originally Posted by blue62 View Post
Good post Hiram..If you read our recent book thread it was about this very subject ..Home meetings of the church, where Christ is the 'head' of the meeting, and everyone is able to participate in worship by sharing their gifts of the holy spirit. That is the way the early church worshipped and shared together..
Thanks for the thread.

Acts 2:46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart,

I think quite often whenever one reads about the breaking of bread, that it is pertaining to the Lords supper.

I worked in Greece before, and when ever we stopped for lunch or a break, the Greeks would grab a loaf of bread, break a chunk off, and pass or throw the loaf to the next guy. He would also "break" a piece off. They never used a knife like we would here. I think that tradition goes back a long way in Greece.
 
Old 07-05-2008, 12:23 PM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
10,295 posts, read 9,653,016 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blue62 View Post
Good post Hiram..If you read our recent book thread it was about this very subject ..Home meetings of the church, where Christ is the 'head' of the meeting, and everyone is able to participate in worship by sharing their gifts of the holy spirit. That is the way the early church worshipped and shared together..
Amen, blue! And to Hiram and your post!
 
Old 07-05-2008, 11:06 PM
 
3 posts, read 9,929 times
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Default Billy Graham and Bill Clinton

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiram View Post
Church of Christ or church of Christ claim to be non denominational, but is it really true, and do they answer to the government?

John 19:15 But they cried out, "Away with [Him,] away with [Him!] Crucify Him!" Pilate said to them, "Shall I crucify your King?" The chief priests answered, "We have no king but Caesar!"

The "One Worlders" goal was to neutralize "the church". They used this through the IRS.

Here are some requirements from the government that make up Caesar's church. Do the COC cater to this list. Do you count your money after worship service for example? Can you be sued. If no entity exists, if it is truly spiritual, then nothing can harm you.


According to this list, excerpted from a list of 30 requirements for bill 501(c) (3) Churches. Put out by the Department of Treasury Internal Revenue Service Pub 1826 (9-94) Cat. no. 21096G, churches must:

1. Be incorporated (BECOME A BUSINESS)
2. Have a recognized creed and "IRS approved form of worship."
3. Have "IRS approved code of doctrine".
4. Have ordained ministers educated in "state accredited colleges."
5. Be "neutral on political issues."
6. "Have tax exempt status issued by IRS."
7. Pastor must answer to the IRS as to "daily activities of the church."
8. The IRS must be privy to "all financial transactions" of the church.
9. Pastor must supply "names of all donors"- make books records available.
10. May only use "IRS approved" fundraising methods.
11. Pastor will be "called to account over any stand taken against the tax system."
12. Church "must advocate and support racial integration." (Multiculturalism)
13. May "not" engage in activities "opposing pornography."
14. May "not" support legislation saying "children belong to parents" rather than state."
15. May not form a Political Action Committee nor support legislation "opposing lotteries and gambling activity."
16. May not "oppose the public school system."
17. May "not publicly declare" we are to "obey God rather than the government."

Nowhere in scripture did Christ or any of the "saints" go to a "state run school" by Caesar to learn about the word of God. This tells you right now who is indoctrinating you, and other religionists. Not only COC, but other denominations, keep watching your carefully groomed televangelists. Billy Graham for example grew up with Bill Clinton.
Many teleevangelists are evangelists. They tell people about Jesus. Some time ago I was watching Billy Graham preaching in Sheffield, England. It was awesome. The Holy Spirit had literally "arrested" those in the audience. I could see the conviction on their faces by the truth of the gospel Rev. Graham was preaching. I could not have been more proud of God's servant. Many Christians find fault with other dimensions of God's Spirit upon their fellow Christians. Shame on us! No one has a monopoly on the things of God! Christians are to walk in love, dispense grace, and never compromise the faith. Does not it say in the Book of Revelation about the seven spirits of God that are sent around the earth (Revelation 5:6)? Now we know that God is not a seven head giant. This passage reveals the different dimensions of the Holy Spirit of God. There are different aspects of Christian ministry and service. When we as Christians start to recognize these aspects our spiritual life/lives grow. When we reject them a portion of the body tends to suffer. Open your eyes to spiritual revelation and truth in Christ. Let the church grow and bring multitudes into the family of God by proclaiming Jesus under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Then we will see burden removing, yoke destroying power of God manifested through the name of Jesus by the Holy Spirit and anointed Word of God! Forget your petty theological differences in order that God by His Spirit WILL HAVE HIS WAY! And let the name of JESUS CHRIST OF NAZARETH be exalted in the midst of chaotic humanity.
 
Old 07-06-2008, 05:02 AM
 
348 posts, read 554,946 times
Reputation: 58
Default endorphins opium feel good state

Quote:
Originally Posted by fothg View Post
Many teleevangelists are evangelists. They tell people about Jesus. Some time ago I was watching Billy Graham preaching in Sheffield, England.
Quote:
It was awesome. The Holy Spirit had literally "arrested" those in the audience.
I could see the conviction on their faces by the truth of the gospel Rev. Graham was preaching. I could not have been more proud of God's servant. Many Christians find fault with other dimensions of God's Spirit upon their fellow Christians. Shame on us! No one has a monopoly on the things of God! Christians are to walk in love, dispense grace, and never compromise the faith. Does not it say in the Book of Revelation about the seven spirits of God that are sent around the earth (Revelation 5:6)? Now we know that God is not a seven head giant. This passage reveals the different dimensions of the Holy Spirit of God. There are different aspects of Christian ministry and service. When we as Christians start to recognize these aspects our spiritual life/lives grow. When we reject them a portion of the body tends to suffer. Open your eyes to spiritual revelation and truth in Christ. Let the church grow and bring multitudes into the family of God by proclaiming Jesus under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Then we will see burden removing, yoke destroying power of God manifested through the name of Jesus by the Holy Spirit and anointed Word of God! Forget your petty theological differences in order that God by His Spirit WILL HAVE HIS WAY! And let the name of JESUS CHRIST OF NAZARETH be exalted in the midst of chaotic humanity.

Billy Graham is a Mason of high degrees. He has another agenda that has much of the religious world fooled.

Charismatic figures such as Graham are very artful at crowd manipulation. Go to a rock concert sometime. A spirit is also arresting these people. And it isn't from God.

What the people were experiencing at the Billy Graham concert was an altered "Alpha" state of consciousness. Once in the Alpha state your mind becomes many times more open for suggestion. Thus you are ready for the programing and brainwashing that he will be generating.


When you go into an altered state, you transfer into right brain, which results in the internal release of brain opiates: enkephalins and Beta-endorphins, which are chemically almost identical to opium. In other words, it feels good and you want to experience more.

When in this "trance" your conscious mind forgets much of what you are told, but you sub-conscious remembers everything.

Beware, Billy Graham is a "new ager" working for the powers of the world. He is working for a "one world religion".


Reverend is a word that is mentioned only once in scripture, and you should not give this title to Graham.

Psalms 111:9 He sent redemption unto his people: he hath commanded his covenant for ever: holy and reverend [is] his name.
 
Old 07-13-2008, 02:10 AM
 
532 posts, read 856,698 times
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Thumbs down coc question

Quote:
Originally Posted by blue62 View Post
Good post Hiram..If you read our recent book thread it was about this very subject ..Home meetings of the church, where Christ is the 'head' of the meeting, and everyone is able to participate in worship by sharing their gifts of the holy spirit. That is the way the early church worshipped and shared together..
Blue--I wonder if you could elaborate a little on why you left the coc. Maybe you have already done this in previous posts that I have not read. I think you mentioned legalism as being one reason. I was raised in the coc, and have been a member my whole life--altho I did back slide for a few yrs, then returned. Recently, I have been disillusioned by the materialism that seems to have taken over at most of the coc's I have been to. At our local coc. it seems that too much focus has been placed on "business". We had a perfectly good church building which was actually too big for the amount of people attending--but the church elders decided that we should buy land, and build a newer, larger building, which meant going into debt. Some members were aganist this, and it has created misunderstanding. It seems to me that the focus there now is centered on competing with other churches for the bigest building, and how to entice people to come, based on what is offered materially--intertainment, ect. I have almost stopped going, as I feel that the Spiritualty is missing. I don't feel comfortable in a big, expensive Church, no matter how beautiful. I was raised going to a small country congregation in TX, where it was like a big family. I too am bothered by legalism, which seems to be flourishing. I haven't found any other church to take the place of coc, so I am just sort of floating, and praying.
 
Old 07-13-2008, 07:55 AM
 
Location: NW Arkansas
3,978 posts, read 8,518,859 times
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Roberta , are you saying you are considering 'stop going' to worship with members of the church entirely because of the changes you see? As Jesus asked Peter, when so many of His disciples were turning from Him, "Will you leave also?" And Peter said. " To whom would I go? " In the book of Revelation, when the 7 churches of Asia were being addressed, there is not one where they were told to leave, they were told to " hold fast to what is good". Is there not a smaller congregation where you can go? The smaller ones need all the support they can get. We are members of a small congregation, and we are like family, but we also have many friends in the nearby large congregation, and in many of the other small congregations.

I do not understand the comment you made about "legalism". How can the large congregation be becoming 'materialistic', if they are legalistic? It seems a contradiction of terms.

If the elders chose to do things that you feel are wrong, it is they that will answer for it, not you. It is fine for you to voice your disagreement, but do not turn your back on the church.

Your sister in Christ, Marian
 
Old 07-13-2008, 08:56 AM
 
13,640 posts, read 24,420,525 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roberta View Post
Blue--I wonder if you could elaborate a little on why you left the coc. Maybe you have already done this in previous posts that I have not read.
Roberta, I left the cofc for many reasons, mainly because I simply was not comfortable with some of the interpertations of the scriptures..I think God places us where we can do his work best, and I believe he gives us the "tools" or "gifts" if you will to best do his work..IMO, there should be no rules about submission , except to the gospel, and to Christ as the head of the church when we meet in worship..Even during our Wednesday night prayer service, it was against "the rules" for me to offer a prayer of thanksgiving or praise..On Sunday morning it was against "the rules" for me to be a Sunsay School teacher for the teenagers boys and girls class, because after children reach a certain age women were not allowed to "teach" them..I didn't believe that baptism washes away our sins, or "saves" us. Christs sacrifice on the cross did that, and by his grace we are saved. I think baptism is the outward expression of our faith and acceptance, and should be done, because Jesus did it..

Roberta, there are other reasons I left the church and I will be happy to finish this discussion through dm's..That way I won't have to feel like I have to engage in any conflict or hurt anyones feelings..I try not to do that here or in the rw.. I think Christ is the head of the church and that within the church there are neither male, nor female, master or slave, we are supposed to be unified as the body of christ and use our gifts of the holy spirit that were given to each one of us to teach, sing, prophesy, etc, in order to lift each other, and to praise and honor Him..
 
Old 07-13-2008, 10:25 AM
 
348 posts, read 554,946 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roberta View Post
Blue--I wonder if you could elaborate a little on why you left the coc. Maybe you have already done this in previous posts that I have not read. I think you mentioned legalism as being one reason. I was raised in the coc, and have been a member my whole life--altho I did back slide for a few yrs, then returned. Recently, I have been disillusioned by the materialism that seems to have taken over at most of the coc's I have been to. At our local coc. it seems that too much focus has been placed on "business". We had a perfectly good church building which was actually too big for the amount of people attending--but the church elders decided that we should buy land, and build a newer, larger building, which meant going into debt. Some members were aganist this, and it has created misunderstanding. It seems to me that the focus there now is centered on competing with other churches for the bigest building, and how to entice people to come, based on what is offered materially--intertainment, ect. I have almost stopped going, as I feel that the Spiritualty is missing. I don't feel comfortable in a big, expensive Church, no matter how beautiful. I was raised going to a small country congregation in TX, where it was like a big family. I too am bothered by legalism, which seems to be flourishing. I haven't found any other church to take the place of coc, so I am just sort of floating, and praying.
Matthew 15:14 "Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch."

Romans 13:8, "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another:"

Deuteronomy 15:6; 28:12, “Thou shalt not borrow.”

(NASB) Proverbs 22:7 The rich rules over the poor, And the borrower becomes the lender's slave.

Joshua 24:15, "...choose you this day whom ye will serve;"

roberta The truth of the matter is, the concept of "church" originated with man and not with God, and over the centuries man has institutionalized his creation. In other words, in the mind of the theologian, the "church" became an "it" separate from the people themselves. This idea permeates the thinking of those in the Church of Christ.

Actually, the English word "church" does not translate the Greek word ecclesia, and does not belong in any English translation of the Bible. The word ecclesia is used throughout the New Testament, but nearly always has reference to God's people who were "called out of darkness." In that context, the ecclesia is the spiritual body of Christ. Men have perverted this concept into a literal organized, functional, entity, which they call "the church." They have differentiated it into "local" and "universal." Furthermore, they think they see Divine instructions in the scriptures for the "local church," which they insist must be followed to the "letter" or run the risk of being condemned by God. They proclaim that all who do not participate in the "different acts of worship" in the assembly are going to hell and that includes giving enough of your earnings to please God. Attendance and financial support are absolutely necessary to salvation - and, to the guaranteed existence of the Church of Christ.

Where in scripture did Christ's chosen ever meet in a church building? They met in the temple or synagogue, but this old system, or Covenant has been replaced with... a spiritual one.

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." Then the Jews said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?" But He was speaking of the temple of His body.

The Old Testament ordinances have been destroyed. We are now in a spiritual kingdom. There is no focus on a "church building".

I myself belonged to a "church of Christ". The elders can tell you that because you don't capitalize "church" you are not a denomination. But believe me, when your church answers to the government in all their business affairs, and bill 501(c), all the letters are capitalized. Because it is a business. You even do business there on sunday, the so called day of rest, by passing the collection plate around.

God's assembly is not a business. The kingdom is spiritual. Christ had no ties to Caesar. You can take your experience from being in the COC and go on. You will have to be strong and not look back. Continue studying and looking for truth and continue your prayer for understanding. God will not forsake you.

Quote:
I haven't found any other church to take the place of coc, so I am just sort of floating, and praying.
God's kingdom can be found within the pages of His Holy scriptures. You don't need to "look" for another church. All of these theories perish under a single blow of truth: God never established a literal organization, a functional entity, called "the church"! Jesus never died to save "the church." Jesus died that "whosoever believeth on Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn. 3:16). Jesus died to save individuals, not a "church"! In apostolic times, when a person gave in to the persuasion of the gospel, he/she was considered "saved." Christians were never instructed to form, organize, or in any way create a corporate body to function as a "local church." When a person became a Christian, he/she had a direct relationship to God through His Son Jesus Christ. Men have obscured that relationship by imposing the necessity of "church membership" for salvation. When I fully realized this, I was closer to leaving this man-made organization called, "The Church of Christ."
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