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Old 05-24-2009, 09:37 PM
 
306 posts, read 303,495 times
Reputation: 98
Need and required is not the same sorry to burst your bubble. You Need a drink but that doesn't mean that is required to be a certain thing to drink. You Need to be baptized and should want to be baptized but not required look beyond Acts. You all take one version and run with it. Read Romans. I might need to make a phone call to an old friend but a requirement that I do it. So you see there is a difference.

 
Old 05-24-2009, 09:44 PM
 
Location: Tulsa
2,529 posts, read 2,540,257 times
Reputation: 537
Quote:
Originally Posted by deerdog View Post
Need and required is not the same sorry to burst your bubble. You Need a drink but that doesn't mean that is required to be a certain thing to drink. You Need to be baptized and should want to be baptized but not required look beyond Acts. You all take one version and run with it. Read Romans. I might need to make a phone call to an old friend but a requirement that I do it. So you see there is a difference.
Guess what? I'm "kinda" smart myself, and know that need and required are the same.

Your examples? If you need a drink, it's required that it's a liquid. Acts shows you need/are required to be baptized, why would I want to dismiss it? If you need to make a phone call, it is the same as though it's required of you to do it.

What do you mean we take one version and run with it? You mean we read all the verses that say baptism is required, and then believe it is? We also believe other things are required as well. Whatever the bible says to do, we do. Not pick and choose.

You and I will never agree on this, deerdog. I'm just reacting to your post. If you want to insist that need and required are not the same thing, knock your socks off. I'll teach the children I'm responsible for that they are synonyms.

ETA: Read Romans? Romans 6:3
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Romans 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

This is how we come into contact with His death. An essential thing to do.
 
Old 05-24-2009, 10:01 PM
 
306 posts, read 303,495 times
Reputation: 98
I am so blessed that I am not so closed minded to believe that only baptism is going to save me. Thank You for you trying to help me to believe that but its not going to work. I figured out for myself that baptism is not going to get me to heaven when I left the CofC. I do agree all christians should be baptized and should want to be. But again its not getting you to heaven. We contact the Blood in a spiritual way when we confess and become saved. Saved as in saved not by baptism for remission of sin. As only people who are baptized for remission of sin is going to be in heaven like you believe. That elimanates a vast majority of Christians who are baptized as an outward showing of what Christ did to you on the inside. I contacted Jesus blood when I hit my knees at the alter and I asked for forgiveness and asked him to become my savior I was then cleansed of all my sins as I layed them down and he washed them away. I was saved washed in the blood of the Lamb not the waters of a baptismal pit. Praise the Lord that he showed me and I was open enough to have seen and realized that before it was too late to turn from that belief that you have because at one time I believed the same way as you.
 
Old 05-24-2009, 11:10 PM
 
241 posts, read 237,241 times
Reputation: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by deerdog View Post
I am so blessed that I am not so closed minded to believe that only baptism is going to save me. Thank You for you trying to help me to believe that but its not going to work. I figured out for myself that baptism is not going to get me to heaven when I left the CofC. I do agree all christians should be baptized and should want to be. But again its not getting you to heaven. We contact the Blood in a spiritual way when we confess and become saved. Saved as in saved not by baptism for remission of sin. As only people who are baptized for remission of sin is going to be in heaven like you believe. That elimanates a vast majority of Christians who are baptized as an outward showing of what Christ did to you on the inside. I contacted Jesus blood when I hit my knees at the alter and I asked for forgiveness and asked him to become my savior I was then cleansed of all my sins as I layed them down and he washed them away. I was saved washed in the blood of the Lamb not the waters of a baptismal pit. Praise the Lord that he showed me and I was open enough to have seen and realized that before it was too late to turn from that belief that you have because at one time I believed the same way as you.
Deerdog man, you got this all mixed up. The reason you don't see that baptism is essential to salvation is because you don't want to, plain and simple. Much has been said. If a person won't accept one scripture, they won't accept a hundred. You contacted no blood when you hit your knees. Prayer does not save (Isa. 59:1-2). Prayer is a privilege to Christians, those who have obeyed the gospel of Christ. Paul himself was praying for 3 days and Ananias told him to get up and be BAPTIZED and WASH away thy sins calling on the name of the Lord. You can only be washed in water in order to come in contact with the blood of Jesus (Rev. 1:5). Remember when the soldiers pierced Him in the side, what came out, blood and water not just blood and you call on the name of the Lord in obedience, not prayer.
 
Old 05-25-2009, 06:11 AM
 
306 posts, read 303,495 times
Reputation: 98
Quote:
Deerdog man, you got this all mixed up. The reason you don't see that baptism is essential to salvation is because you don't want to, plain and simple. Much has been said. If a person won't accept one scripture, they won't accept a hundred. You contacted no blood when you hit your knees. Prayer does not save (Isa. 59:1-2). Prayer is a privilege to Christians, those who have obeyed the gospel of Christ. Paul himself was praying for 3 days and Ananias told him to get up and be BAPTIZED and WASH away thy sins calling on the name of the Lord. You can only be washed in water in order to come in contact with the blood of Jesus (Rev. 1:5). Remember when the soldiers pierced Him in the side, what came out, blood and water not just blood and you call on the name of the Lord in obedience, not prayer.
I just didn't pray I was saved what does the bible say all you have to do is Accept, Believe, and Confess and then you are saved. Now as a new Christian you should want to be baptized but your already saved. I was baptized in a spiritual way when I was saved as all my sins were washed away when I accepted him as my savior. I was then baptized in the water as a outward symbol. The washing of the water to have contact is the word the water is symbolic of the word in that phrase that you used.
 
Old 05-25-2009, 06:41 AM
 
Location: NW Arkansas
3,981 posts, read 5,267,690 times
Reputation: 3652
The teaching that baptism is an "outward symbol" is not a scriptural doctrine.
Baptism is God working in us. In baptism He washes away our sins, and He gives us the gift of the Holy Spirit. That gift is not the miraculous workings that were given by the laying on of the hands of the Apostles, it is the earnest of our inheritance.
There is no other way one can get either their sins washed away, or recieve the earnest of our inheritance.
The only logical excuse for anyone to reject this, is because they have rejected the counsel of God. Their reasoning is not from God, it is from man.
 
Old 05-25-2009, 07:58 AM
 
Location: Tulsa
2,529 posts, read 2,540,257 times
Reputation: 537
Quote:
Originally Posted by deerdog View Post
I am so blessed that I am not so closed minded to believe that only baptism is going to save me.
Deerdog, do you seriously not listen, because you have hardened your heart toward anyone claiming to be a member of the church of Christ? I have never ever said only baptism saves you. Ever. I have said that I believe we have to obey the whole word, which includes believing, repenting, confessing, being baptized, and remaining faithful.

You know, there are people that believe all you have to do is believe. Know what they would say to you? "I'm so blessed that I am not so closed minded to believe that accepting, believing, and confessing is what saves me."

Quote:
Originally Posted by deerdog View Post
I just didn't pray I was saved what does the bible say all you have to do is Accept, Believe, and Confess and then you are saved. Now as a new Christian you should want to be baptized but your already saved. I was baptized in a spiritual way when I was saved as all my sins were washed away when I accepted him as my savior. I was then baptized in the water as a outward symbol. The washing of the water to have contact is the word the water is symbolic of the word in that phrase that you used.
The bible says you must accept, believe, and confess, that is true. But it also says you must repent and be baptized as well. Why do you leave those two out? They are very clear in scripture just as the others.

Baptized in a spiritual way? The bible says there is only one baptism. So what is that one baptism? In a spiritual way as you claim, or water baptism? If it's the spiritual way as you say, then water baptism is not null.

Quote:
We contact the Blood in a spiritual way when we confess and become saved.
So you just dismiss what the bible says about how we contact the blood, and came to your own conclusion? Because I showed you in Romans that it says we come into contact with His blood when we are baptized. Romans 6:3-4.

Quote:
Saved as in saved not by baptism for remission of sin.
This is what you say, yet what does the bible say?

Acts 2:38...Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Quote:
I was saved washed in the blood of the Lamb not the waters of a baptismal pit.
You know very well that we believe it's the blood that saves, not the water. Being baptized is just how we come into contact with that blood.
 
Old 05-25-2009, 08:12 AM
 
Location: Tulsa
2,529 posts, read 2,540,257 times
Reputation: 537
Quote:
Originally Posted by deerdog View Post
Praise the Lord that he showed me and I was open enough to have seen and realized that before it was too late to turn from that belief that you have because at one time I believed the same way as you.
Let me lay this out for you. Someone wants to be saved while attending the church of Christ. They go forward and an elder speaks to them. Obviously this person already believes (Belief- Mark 16:16). An elder may ask her, are you ready to turn from your sins and live for Christ? (Repentance- Luke 13:3). He then stands her in front of the congregation and asks her, do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God? She answers yes. (Confession- Romans 10:10). He then baptizes her. (Baptism- Acts 2:38).

Ok, now if we're wrong, and she was saved right after believing and confessing, will she still go to heaven, even though she went on to be baptized? Of course.

Now...with your belief. You tell someone all they have to do is accept, believe, and confess and they are saved.

What if you're wrong, and one does have to repent and be baptized? What if she wasn't saved because she wasn't taught she must repent, and she wasn't baptized? Will she still go to heaven? No.

Which doctrine is more dangerous?

You said, "realized that before it was too late to turn from that belief". Before it was too late for what? You act like teaching someone they must be baptized is going to make them burn in hell.
 
Old 05-25-2009, 08:15 AM
 
Location: Tulsa
2,529 posts, read 2,540,257 times
Reputation: 537
I just want to add that I truly care for you, deerdog, and want you to be saved. (Not saying that you aren't). I have an obligation to tell you what the whole bible says.

But, if you'll notice, I don't come "preaching" at you every time I see you on these boards and tell you I disagree with your belief. Only when you come on the "Church of Christ" thread or maybe a baptism thread. You come in here and have to say our belief is wrong, which is when I react to your statements.

Just wanted to make that clear.
 
Old 05-25-2009, 08:20 AM
 
3,067 posts, read 2,294,068 times
Reputation: 231
Deerdog you are correct on this issue of baptism.

The water is by iteslf meaningless.
The idea that you go under the water means nothing without the idea that it is a symbol of what has or is happening inside the person's heart.

Without that, baptism is just a fancy word for taking a bath....LOL

So outward look of baptism in water, (the act of taking a bath in a tub cleaning dirt off the flesh) is only pointing to the real mission of Baptism and that it to show what has or is happening inside the person.

I cant show you what has happend inside my heart in any other way.
I cant show you I believe...
Faith is not a "thing" like a chair or a pillow that we can look at and pass around the table.
Rather faith is inside a person's heart.
Baptism is a way for a church to show the world that we do have faith...

Baptism can be seen as a symbol of death, in that the water can be seen as a symbol of dirt , the dirt of the grave.
And when you come up out of the water of your baptism it can be seen as a symbol of how one day you will rise again out of your real grave.
-------------
Now Deerdog, there is one more thing to say of Baptism.

Although the use of baptism is to help the church see the inner faith of a person, we also should keep in mind that some people are saved when they go under the water.
The moment of baptism can be the same moment of Salvation to some of us.
Others have been saved long before they filled the tub with water.

So we cant just make a rule that says "All are saved before baptism"
For some are saved in and via their baptism...
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