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Old 07-13-2008, 12:17 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,481,074 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiram View Post
Announcements, two songs, a prayer, a song, another song to "prepare our minds," the Lord's Supper, the collection, the sermon, an invitation song, closing remarks, closing song, and a closing prayer. Ceremony and ritualism. This is another form of the Catholic Church.

I think that one reason we succumb to ceremony and ritualism is because of the insistence to own and meet in a "church-building." Look at the arrangement in the auditorium. All the seats in theater style, facing the front (stage?). In a lot of places, there is a spotlight fixed at the location of the preacher or master of ceremonies. This tends to focus all attention on the one who is "performing." The seating arrangement discourages any interaction between the members. In fact, even whispering may illicit a resounding rebuke. After dismissal, a person does get the idea that he/she has "attended a service," instead of "participating" and "serving."

The disciples met in their houses. Jesus promised that even where two or three come together, He will be in their midst. The practice of building a special place for the group did not become the norm until the early Fourth Century. In these smaller, more intimate gatherings, there was no call for formalism, ceremony, or ritualism. The saints came together to visit and to encourage each other in the faith. Sometimes, someone would have a spiritual song or psalm to share, someone else prayed. They often came together to eat a common meal. There was no set pattern. God has not revealed one. Coming together in this fashion allowed them to really know each other and to discover ways they could minister to each other.

Meeting this way in houses carried other advantages. There were no collections of money for payments on properties, maintenance, and utilities. There were no squabbles over who owned or controlled the building. There were no signs to put up, therefore, no need to "name the group." There was no need for a "church treasury," something completely foreign to the New Testament scriptures. The early Christians were admonished to put money aside AT HOME, in case an opportunity to exercise benevolence came along (1 Cor. 16:1-3).


1 Corinthians 6:16-18 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will dwell in them And walk among [them.] I will be their God, And they shall be My people." Therefore "Come out from among them And be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you." "I will be a Father to you, And you shall be My sons and daughters, Says the LORD Almighty.
Amen and Amen, Hiram! BTW, do you attend a "church?" I have not attended for some time now--since being told I was welcomed but not my preterist views!

Preterist

 
Old 07-13-2008, 12:55 PM
 
Location: NW Arkansas
3,978 posts, read 8,520,521 times
Reputation: 3778
I am sorry, Hiram, but your concept of what the church of Christ is...is totally contrary to what the scriptures say it is..plain and simple !
It is a very serious thing to blasphamy the church that Christ bled and died for! He purchased it with His own blood. Do you honestly think that all the scriptures are mistaken about what the church is !

Do you not believe that the scriptures are the word of God ?
 
Old 07-13-2008, 03:43 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,481,074 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marianinark View Post
I am sorry, Hiram, but your concept of what the church of Christ is...is totally contrary to what the scriptures say it is..plain and simple !
It is a very serious thing to blasphamy the church that Christ bled and died for! He purchased it with His own blood. Do you honestly think that all the scriptures are mistaken about what the church is !

Do you not believe that the scriptures are the word of God ?
And the Scriptures you would use to refute Hiram are--? It is also a very serious thing, Marianinark, to falsely accuse a brother or sister in Christ of blasphemy! What Scriptures did Hiram say are mistaken about the Church? Can you give us just one? Please share with us the biblical passages that clearly teach as legitimate the things that Hiram was calling into question!

I am inferring that you are implying that Hiram does NOT believe that the Scriptures are the word of God! Upon what do you base such an implication? If you are going to properly accuse someone of such a heinous crime as blasphemy, you are required to clearly, succinctly and thoroughly present your charges. Do not so cavalierly point your finger at someone and cry "blasphemy!" A good case could be made that historically, when this word has been used, it has been used BY the true blasphemer and TO the one being falsely accused of being a blasphemer! (e.g. the Jews accusing Jesus, the Roman Catholic Church accusing Martin Luther).

This is a rebuke to all on these threads who so easily and readily accuse fellow believers of "blasphemy" and "heresy." Let us be careful of what we accuse others! Remember, today's heretic can be tomorrow's hero! (e.g. John Hus, Martin Luther, William Tyndale, John Calvin, Huldrych Zvingli, etc.). One is NOT a heretic simply because he disagrees with you!

Why are so many so easily offended and prone to anger when someone presents a different perspective than their own? Did you take the time to truly attempt to understand where Hiram is coming from? Did you? Is there not some legitimacy to his complaints against the modern view of "church?"

Again, let us all be very careful about throwing around such terms as "blasphemy" or "heretic." Let us carefully consider the words of our brothers and sisters in Christ lest we accuse them of something of which they are not guilty and perhaps even find ourselves guilty instead!

Furthermore, Jesus did NOT shed His blood for a building or for an organized assembly that calls itself a church! Jesus died to save individual people who, once redeemed, make up the true church!

Preterist

Last edited by Preterist; 07-13-2008 at 04:00 PM..
 
Old 07-13-2008, 05:09 PM
sub
 
Location: ^##
4,963 posts, read 3,676,721 times
Reputation: 7831
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiram View Post
Announcements, two songs, a prayer, a song, another song to "prepare our minds," the Lord's Supper, the collection, the sermon, an invitation song, closing remarks, closing song, and a closing prayer. Ceremony and ritualism. This is another form of the Catholic Church.

I think that one reason we succumb to ceremony and ritualism is because of the insistence to own and meet in a "church-building." Look at the arrangement in the auditorium. All the seats in theater style, facing the front (stage?). In a lot of places, there is a spotlight fixed at the location of the preacher or master of ceremonies. This tends to focus all attention on the one who is "performing." The seating arrangement discourages any interaction between the members. In fact, even whispering may illicit a resounding rebuke. After dismissal, a person does get the idea that he/she has "attended a service," instead of "participating" and "serving."

The disciples met in their houses. Jesus promised that even where two or three come together, He will be in their midst. The practice of building a special place for the group did not become the norm until the early Fourth Century. In these smaller, more intimate gatherings, there was no call for formalism, ceremony, or ritualism. The saints came together to visit and to encourage each other in the faith. Sometimes, someone would have a spiritual song or psalm to share, someone else prayed. They often came together to eat a common meal. There was no set pattern. God has not revealed one. Coming together in this fashion allowed them to really know each other and to discover ways they could minister to each other.

Meeting this way in houses carried other advantages. There were no collections of money for payments on properties, maintenance, and utilities. There were no squabbles over who owned or controlled the building. There were no signs to put up, therefore, no need to "name the group." There was no need for a "church treasury," something completely foreign to the New Testament scriptures. The early Christians were admonished to put money aside AT HOME, in case an opportunity to exercise benevolence came along (1 Cor. 16:1-3).


1 Corinthians 6:16-18 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will dwell in them And walk among [them.] I will be their God, And they shall be My people." Therefore "Come out from among them And be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you." "I will be a Father to you, And you shall be My sons and daughters, Says the LORD Almighty.
I think that there's a lot of misconceptions about what churches of Christ do, or don't do. It's very complex, because in spite of that group's historical cohesion, in recent years there have been drastic changes take place. What was once considered the "mainline" group, not meaning the non-institutionalists, one-cup, mutual edification, etc., can easily be divided into 4 or 5 distinct groups now, and of course, some congregations no longer fellowship with others. The more liberal congregations often tend to be fairly ecuminical with other denominations.

Anyway, as far as your post goes, I agree that the church we know, whatever denomination we're apart of, looks very little like what is described in the Bible. The few other types of congregations that weren't churches of Christ that I've been to, all had the same ritualism, to some extent. Churches of Christ often tend to be a bit more rigid in how they do things, but the Baptist, Full Gospel, and Christian churches were basically the same. Of course, the charismatic church (Full Gospel) I visit from time to time, feels like you could get up and say whatever whenever you feel moved to do so. Otherwise, they to have a order they stick with.

It's interesting that what you describe looks sort of like what the so-called "restoration movement", which spawned the churches of Christ, set out to do. No fancy names, no divisions, just Christians. Unfortunately, human nature took over, and made it into more denominations.

I came across a book (I wish I had of bought it), called Pagan Christianity, that describes how a lot of the rituals we use in church are actually remnants of various types of pagan rituals. I think there's some truth to that. It reminds me a lot of what you're saying.

Going to church often feels little different than going to a movie. No matter what goofy things church leaders try to do to get people more involved and more interested and treating other church members like FAMILY, few things seem to work. Even the life groups that meet in each others houses don't seem to fix it, for whatever reasons.
One reason I believe that churches are so impersonal in our society, is that people are too mobile for there own good. If we don't like this church, we can drive down the road to the next one. It always ends up being a situation where half the congregation doesn't live within 30 miles of each other. How is that ever going to be a community? We never see each other on the street, in the stores... It was probably better when you went to the local congregation because horse travel wasn't fast enough to get you to the next town, and that was it. You may not have cared for the preacher's sermons, or the song service, or the Sunday school lessons, but you went. As a result from being around the same people every week, who were also your neighbors, you became a family. A church.
Of course, self-absorbed materialism also hinders churches from becoming anything great.
 
Old 07-14-2008, 01:05 AM
 
532 posts, read 856,841 times
Reputation: 128
Thumbs down At a crossroad

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marianinark View Post
Roberta , are you saying you are considering 'stop going' to worship with members of the church entirely because of the changes you see? As Jesus asked Peter, when so many of His disciples were turning from Him, "Will you leave also?" And Peter said. " To whom would I go? " In the book of Revelation, when the 7 churches of Asia were being addressed, there is not one where they were told to leave, they were told to " hold fast to what is good". Is there not a smaller congregation where you can go? The smaller ones need all the support they can get. We are members of a small congregation, and we are like family, but we also have many friends in the nearby large congregation, and in many of the other small congregations.

I do not understand the comment you made about "legalism". How can the large congregation be becoming 'materialistic', if they are legalistic? It seems a contradiction of terms.

If the elders chose to do things that you feel are wrong, it is they that will answer for it, not you. It is fine for you to voice your disagreement, but do not turn your back on the church.

Your sister in Christ, Marian
Marian--thank you for being there. and speaking for the church. I admire you for your staunch support of what we coc people have believed for most of our lives. You remind me of how I have been raised, and of all the good people I have had the pleasure of knowing in the Church. I love them all. I am just having a hard time with the way the coc is moving these days. The naterialistic aspect has to do with the church becoming involved with worldly matters--business deals, ect. The legalistic side has to do with the rituals of the church--a ceremonial type of worship, that if you vary from--you are doomed to hell. I find it hard to believe that we are doomed if we vary our worship service to singing, praying. preaching, ect in a rote manner. I find it hard to believe that God would condemm us if we show emotion, or clap our hands, ect. God made us human, not robots. Maybe he likes us to be enthused about his great Gift of Salvation. We can worship Him with fervor. and not be afraid of his wrath, if we are overjoyed by the wondrous news of his promise of Salvation. How do we hide our excitement at this great news! We should shout it from the rooftops, instead of being afraid of getting the schedule wrong. I don't think God cares what song we sing, when we sing it, what prayer we say. what building we meet in. what seat we sit in--what hour we do it. This is legalism. I remember going through this my whole life--being scared that I was going to hell if I varied from the rituals. It was like Jesus didn't die for my sins. but rather, I had to keep paying for them by observing the right protocal--getting the ceremony just right before I could be saved. Don't get me wrong--I love the coc people, and I love you for speaking for them. I just need to realize the Spiritual side a little more right now, instead of the worldly side.
 
Old 07-14-2008, 01:41 AM
 
532 posts, read 856,841 times
Reputation: 128
Thumbs down A good response

Quote:
Originally Posted by blue62 View Post
Roberta, I left the cofc for many reasons, mainly because I simply was not comfortable with some of the interpertations of the scriptures..I think God places us where we can do his work best, and I believe he gives us the "tools" or "gifts" if you will to best do his work..IMO, there should be no rules about submission , except to the gospel, and to Christ as the head of the church when we meet in worship..Even during our Wednesday night prayer service, it was against "the rules" for me to offer a prayer of thanksgiving or praise..On Sunday morning it was against "the rules" for me to be a Sunsay School teacher for the teenagers boys and girls class, because after children reach a certain age women were not allowed to "teach" them..I didn't believe that baptism washes away our sins, or "saves" us. Christs sacrifice on the cross did that, and by his grace we are saved. I think baptism is the outward expression of our faith and acceptance, and should be done, because Jesus did it..

Roberta, there are other reasons I left the church and I will be happy to finish this discussion through dm's..That way I won't have to feel like I have to engage in any conflict or hurt anyones feelings..I try not to do that here or in the rw.. I think Christ is the head of the church and that within the church there are neither male, nor female, master or slave, we are supposed to be unified as the body of christ and use our gifts of the holy spirit that were given to each one of us to teach, sing, prophesy, etc, in order to lift each other, and to praise and honor Him..
Thank you Blue, for your response. I wasn't sure if you were a man or woman--but now that I know you are a woman, I understand where you are coming from more accurately. As a woman, it is difficult these days to be put in a subserviant position, than in the past. I understand your concern about being unable to teach certain age-groups, or to say a prayer. I don't know how long you were a member of the coc. I was born and raised in it. Because my maternal family has been in it for so long, it has been hard for me to ask the questions I sub-consciously have always had. I really appreciate your input, and may wish to impose on you with more questions, if that is okay.
 
Old 07-14-2008, 07:50 AM
 
Location: NW Arkansas
3,978 posts, read 8,520,521 times
Reputation: 3778
Roberta, I am sure one reason 'we' have an orderly style to our worship is because of the following scripture," But let all things be done properly and in an orderly manner."
1st Corinthians 14.40.
And back up to verse 33," for God is not a God of confusion but of peace,as in all the churches of the saints."

I have not found it to be accurate to say every congregation of the church has the exact same rituals, or that it is never varied. But I do find it best that what is chosen to be done is orderly.
 
Old 07-14-2008, 07:59 AM
 
13,640 posts, read 24,425,540 times
Reputation: 18580
Quote:
Originally Posted by roberta View Post
Thank you Blue, for your response. I don't know how long you were a member of the coc.
I was in the cofc for about 43 years..For seven give or take years my h became involved with the jw's and since I was convinced that I had to be submissive, I also had to follow him there..I have many scars from manmade religions, but they have healed very well and I am at peace with my beliefs now and the holy spirit is more alive and active within me because of it..
 
Old 07-14-2008, 08:19 AM
 
Location: NW Arkansas
3,978 posts, read 8,520,521 times
Reputation: 3778
One more thing...I would be very afraid of thinking the Holy Spirit is the one guiding me, if my beliefs are contrary to the inspired scriptures. It is true, a spirit may be guiding you, but there are other spirits in this world, and some have been very active in leading people astray.
Take care what spirit you listen to.
I chose to listen to the one that inspired the word of God.
 
Old 07-14-2008, 08:37 AM
 
7,784 posts, read 14,848,385 times
Reputation: 3478
I wonder if it's lonely at the top
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