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Old 11-30-2007, 02:21 PM
 
Location: PA
2,616 posts, read 2,684,705 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
(Title taken from Don K. Preston's booklet, "Can God Tell Time?")

In Bible study and interpretation nothing is more ignored or redefined than the over 100 hundred time terms or time statements in the NT.

Why is this so important? Because if Jesus said He was coming back soon to those of His generation but He did not, His entire character and nature is brought into question. If His apostles and inspired writers of the NT taught that He was coming back in their lifetimes but He did not, the trustworthiness of everything they taught is called into question. If the Bible teaches that Christ was coming back in that generation but He did not, then the entire foundation of Christian is justifiably brought under scrutiny and suspicion.

This is the substance of the modern-day assaults on Christianity by those who hate everything Christianity stands for and by those who would love nothing more than to expose it as false and unworthy of following. Since Jesus did not come back as He promised He would, they say, He is a false prophet. Since Jesus did not come back in that generation as the Apostles taught He would, they are false teachers. Since Jesus did not come back in that generation as the Bible predicts He would, the Bible is full of errors and can't be trusted--Christianity is a false religion.

These are serious allegations which are not satisfactorily defended by the futurist teachings of dual fulfillments and postponements theories. In light of the ferocious and persistent attacks on Christianity regarding the time statements in the NT, what is the best defense? Do we stubbornly hold onto our preconceived ideas and eschatological positions and sweep the time references away by a desperate appeal to 2 Peter 3:8? Or do we take Jesus at His Word and the inspired writers at their word and the Bible at its word and look for first-century fulfillments of the things predicted that do justice to and are honest with the numerous time statements found in God's Word?

Comparing Scripture with Scripture, we see that "at hand" means soon. Do we make it mean one thing in one place and another thing in another place? Is that a solid hermeneutical principle? Do we have strong and irrefutable evidence and justification for doing so? For example:

When John wrote that the passover was "at hand," (John 2:13), did he not mean that it was soon to occur? Why, then, does not Revelation 1:3--"the time is at hand"--mean the same thing? When Jesus said in the garden, "Behold, the hour is "at hand," and the Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of sinners," (Matt. 26:45) did He not mean near? If it means near or soon in time there, why does it not, then, mean near when James uses it? (James 5:8--"The COMING of the Lord is 'at hand'?").

We must take the words as they are written and within their context, paying close attention to audience relevance. We must not redefine words to fit our preconceived ideas. As a teacher of God's Word, I used this erroneous approach for many years. I now regret the number of people I have led astray and can only hope and pray that the Holy Spirit has helped them overcome my false teachings.

I will never again be overtaken by the teachings of men but seek to take the words of Scripture as they are written regardless of how many long-held and precious beliefs I might have to toss out the window. What saith the Scriptures? Are we willing to be good Bereans and always look at the Word of God afresh lest perhaps we find ourselves partakers of an error? We can become, as I did, so used to seeing a passage in a certain way that we do not always really see it at all! By looking at words and verses openly and honestly each time we see them, we will either further confirm our interpretation or see something we did not see before and perhaps re-evaluate or original assessment.

Who is willing to do that with me? I am not asking that anyone throw out his eschatological views. I am merely asking that we be open to the POSSIBILITY that those many time statements found in the NT actually mean what they appear on the surface to mean? Can we lay aside all of our preconceived ideas and our eschatological perspectives (myself included) and simply look at the words to see what they are saying? Who is willing to do that?

Preterist
You are confused, Jesus did not say that he will return before the end of this generation. He said in Luke 21:32 "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. When Jesus spoke of Fulfilling his word, he was talking about his death and resurection. And it was fullfilled before the end of this generation. Did he not say "I come not to distroy the Law but fullfill it. Now, we also know that what Jesus says is the word of God (because he is the word of God) and the word of God is a two edged sword. So we also consider what he said to refer to end times. We specifically believe that in 1948 Israel became a nation. And from this date we begin counting one generation (70 years? 100 years?). So we are looking at 2018 at the earliest to 2048 at the latest for his return. Now, we also have to consider that this is mans interpretation of scripture so God's timing may be different than ours but when we look back after they have taken place we say "Yes" God's word exactly matches up with the events.

Take for example in Rev. it says 8:10: And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
11: And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter. If we look at the events in history we look back and say when did a star fall which is named Wormwood. Well, with a Russian background, I know that Wormwood in Russian is Chernobyl. And we know that from history there was a nuclear meltdown at Chernobyl and many people died there. So, If we take this reference we know that the 3rd angel has already sounded. This is just one example and there are many others. Suffice it to say that many things are falling in line with scripture.

Remember that we will not know the day nor the hour. But this does not mean that we will not know which season he will come. For he said when the leave fall from the tree we know that it is Autumn. The same applies with his return, as these things fall in line more and more we will have to say that the end draws near.
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Old 11-30-2007, 05:57 PM
 
Location: Hot-Houston Texas
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The Bible says every knee will bow and every confess that Jesus is Lord. That has not happened because Jesus has not returned yet. Rev 22:4 says there will be no more evil, but evil is still here, for now.
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Old 11-30-2007, 09:39 PM
 
Location: PA
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God has proven himself to be very fond of time. He said after the flood that " While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease" Gen. 8:22. So the mechanisms that he created for us to measure time and seasons will not alter by his word.

Concerning the Isrealites, it says that they came out of Egypt After 400 years as promised to Abraham in Gen. 15. They came out after 400 years 'to the day'. If God did not understand time then why would he be concerned with his own prophecy to Abraham to the day.

Jesus said in Luke 13:32: And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected." If we consider what Jesus says to be a two edged sword or to have two meanings, then when he says things like this we can look at the passage like this; after 3 days in the tomb he was perfected and rose from the dead. But, the meaning can also be simultaneously that he will be perfected in three days to his return. Using the 1000 year to day, that would put us currently in the third day. for he rose from the dead over 2000 years ago. So, it is in this millenia that he will be perfected in his kingdom.

Concerning his return all will see him come. The bible says that the sea will give up her dead and that the dead in Christ will rise. So their is a time that is coming that ever person shall see. When Jesus asked martha about Lazarus. She said that she knows he will be raised up during the resurection. She was not talking about the ressurection of Christ, but the resurection of all the dead. This was a common theology. Now a days, we think of the resurection solely in terms of Christ. But, he was the first fruit of the grave to life. He was the first to be raised among many. There have been intermitent raisings of the dead since the time of Jesus. But there is a time coming when all shall be raised and that there will be no more death, for it shall be cast into hell.

The scriptures consider time like the day important for it says "Today is the day of Salvation" and in another place it says "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest." Heb 8:10-11 So there is a time that is coming that will be after "those days" a time when all shall know God. When the bible classes will cease, when the Churches will close for all will know him. Isaiah says that earth will no longer be called earth but it will be named "God is there" for he will dwell with us.

After this will time cease? No, for as I have quoted from after the flood God says that these things will not cease. That means it is final for eternity. I think though time will become irrelevant when there is no longer any more death, when he wipes every tear from our eyes. A thousand years may pass at a blink in the eye of eternity. And the 7000 year from the creation of the world to its perfection will seem to us as some distant or long forgotten time. I think that to have a time when we forget all the pain and suffering of this world sounds good. A time when we can say God yes it was good the way that you have done things. Do we not forget the inoculation moments after the pinch when we are comforted by our mother. Somewhat painful yet necessary for our life.
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Old 11-30-2007, 10:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arguy1973 View Post
okay let us reason..I have no difficulty with the time text as Jesus was both man and God, thus having the ability to see into the future.
If the Rapture "has already taken place", then the resurrection has already taken place. Paul, in 1 Corinthians 15 writes of the day when the final "trumpet" for believers will be blown and mortality will put on immortality. In this passage, he links the Rapture with the resurrection of believers. In other words, when the Rapture takes place, the resurrection occurs.

If Matthew 24 are history and say that the "generation that sees these things" was that generation with Jesus nearly 2,000 years ago, it must show that the resurrection has also taken place. The only way that is possible is to spiritualize the text by saying that the resurrection was a spiritual one and not a physical one. Is that what you believe as well?
arguy: Those are very good questions! And you are very correct in connecting Christ's return with the resurrection. The question then becomes-- what is the nature of the resurrection and how could it have literally taken place in A.D. 70? Again, what saith the Scriptures?

What is the nature of the resurrection body? I do not believe it can be equated with that which was seen following Christ's resurrection. Those physical people who were raised from their graves had to again suffer death. This is more correctly characterized as a resuscitation!

Before Christ brought full salvation when He ended forever the Old Covenant system and fully instituted the new in A.D. 70, those who died, both righteous and unrighteous, went to Hades. We seen this in Luke 16 and the account of Lazarus and the rich man. This was the sting of death. There was something in those bodies in Hades that was still not fitted for God's heavenly kingdom. 1 Corinthians reveals the hope of Paul which he imparted to his fellow saints. Notice the personal pronouns in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4.

Christ was the firstfruits then afterward those who are Christ's would be resurrected at His coming! At that time the end would come. But the end of what? The world? No, the end of the Old Covenant system that was even then becoming obsolete, growing old and ready to vanish away (Heb. 8) was to end. The resurrection clearly is tied to Christ's coming. But what is the nature of this resurrection and whom did it first involve?

Paul brought up questions posed by some--"how are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?" Paul answered that it is sown one thing and raised another. We are first of all natural. The natural comes first. Afterward comes the SPIRITUAL. We are first of all of the earth--dust. We first bore the image of Adam but later we bear the image of the heavenly Man. The body returns to that from which it was taken but that "body" which God makes as He pleases (15:38) enters the Kingdom of God which is not of this world. It is a heavenly realm into which no flesh and blood can enter (15:50). Corruption does not inherit incorruption--there must be a change. The first person plural personal pronoun "we" in this passage makes the things of which Paul was writing very relevant and significant to him and to his fellow believers. They would not all sleep--but they would be changed. Those first-century saints expected this in their lifetimes and they anticipated it with great joy. They were to soon be changed. Death would no longer have a hold on them. Unlike their forefathers, they would then go immediately into the presence of Jesus in His kingdom not of this world. There would be no more sleep in Hades! They were made fitted for heaven just as we all are since that time.

And since we are looking at time statements, let's consider the following:

In Acts 24:15 Paul told governor Felix "There is ABOUT TO BE (mello) a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust." He later warned Felix of a judgment that was then "about to come" (Acts 24:25).

Paul speaks of this issue again in 1 Thessalonians 4. He is speaking about himself and his fellow first-century saints when he says "We." They were not to sorrow as those who had no hope. Jesus would not leave their "sleeping" loved ones in Hades. They would rise first in their heavenly bodies and Paul and his fellow living saints would be joined together to them in Christ in the heavenlies. We are, therefore, in the world but not of the world. Paul says "WE who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air. And thus WE shall always be with the Lord." This was their comfort. Unless this affected them personally, there was no real comfort.

Since that time death has no sting and the grave has no victory for the believer. We are now all heavenly though we still live in this world. If we die and believe in Him, we live! If we live and believe in Him, we NEVER die! There is not some future resurrection with bodies of flesh and blood rising out of the earthly graves. We are already resurrected and gathered together in Christ. We are in Him and He is in us! That is the blessed hope. Someday we will shed forever these earthen vessels and our heavenly incorruptible, spiritual and immortable bodies will emerge as a butterfly from a cocoon. In a sense, the new creation that we have been made will not die.

God is spirit and He is real. That which is created in us is also spiritual and is no less real than God Himself.

How are the dead raised? In real spirit fitted for heaven--a kingdom not of this world. That took place in A.D. 70 when Jesus "came" in judgment, put an end to that old system of types and shadows, and delivered the kingdom to His Father.

Preterist
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Old 11-30-2007, 11:50 PM
 
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Luke 9:27, Luke 21:32, Matthew 16:28 and Mark 9:1. If the scriptures are to be taken literally as fundamentalists demand then where is he and who noted it? If he did return as the scriptures say, then why didn't anyone note it? He said he'd return the second time as a conquering king and messiah. Did anyone make note of this when it happened. The concept of Satan as many see him is still on the loose and no less powerful than before. If he lied then that opens a much larger can of theological worms. This is another of those concepts that the brethren don't want to think about very hard.

If the Jewish/Christian God is all powerful and omnipotent, then why did he allow Satan to stick around after his initial rebellion and taint the earthly creation? This doesn't make much sense nor does the trials of Job for that matter. Job, did you feel the love while your family was killed and all of your possessions taken from you? Did you feel like the ball in a cosmic pinball machine? Please discuss.

Last edited by maui4me; 11-30-2007 at 11:54 PM.. Reason: misspellings
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Old 12-01-2007, 12:02 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
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Quote:
Job, did you feel the love while your family was killed and all of your possessions taken from you? Did you feel like the ball in a cosmic pinball machine? Please discuss.
The story of Job is just a vehicle to explain that the ego (Satan) does not necessarily dictate the action of man.
To control yourself (your ego/ your emotion) can be considered divine or loving.

The ego only wants what it wants and not necessarily what we need.
If you let your ego control you, you will be nothing more than a junkie who lets his addiction rule over him.
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Old 12-01-2007, 02:33 AM
 
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But to most Christians, the book of Job is literally true. It seems difficult to worship such a god that would allow these things to happen to one of his children under the pretense of a test of loyalty.
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Old 12-01-2007, 03:53 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
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Quote:
It seems difficult to worship such a god that would allow these things to happen to one of his children under the pretense of a test of loyalty.
True.
But since people believe whatever they want to believe, that ain't my fault.
Neither is it my responsibility.
Except for children, everyone is solely responsible for their own decisions and actions.
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Old 12-01-2007, 04:37 AM
 
1,897 posts, read 2,155,028 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikk View Post
You are confused, Jesus did not say that he will return before the end of this generation. He said in Luke 21:32 "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. When Jesus spoke of Fulfilling his word, he was talking about his death and resurection. And it was fullfilled before the end of this generation. Did he not say "I come not to distroy the Law but fullfill it. Now, we also know that what Jesus says is the word of God (because he is the word of God) and the word of God is a two edged sword. So we also consider what he said to refer to end times. We specifically believe that in 1948 Israel became a nation. And from this date we begin counting one generation (70 years? 100 years?). So we are looking at 2018 at the earliest to 2048 at the latest for his return. Now, we also have to consider that this is mans interpretation of scripture so God's timing may be different than ours but when we look back after they have taken place we say "Yes" God's word exactly matches up with the events.

Take for example in Rev. it says 8:10: And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
11: And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter. If we look at the events in history we look back and say when did a star fall which is named Wormwood. Well, with a Russian background, I know that Wormwood in Russian is Chernobyl. And we know that from history there was a nuclear meltdown at Chernobyl and many people died there. So, If we take this reference we know that the 3rd angel has already sounded. This is just one example and there are many others. Suffice it to say that many things are falling in line with scripture.

Remember that we will not know the day nor the hour. But this does not mean that we will not know which season he will come. For he said when the leave fall from the tree we know that it is Autumn. The same applies with his return, as these things fall in line more and more we will have to say that the end draws near.
Nikk: Jesus said "all these things." That includes everything He has just mentioned including His disciples seeing the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15).

Furthermore, the nation of Israel which was created by the U.N. and not by God bears no resemblance to OT Israel. The genealogies were all lost in the destruction of the temple and city in A.D. 70--for a reason. God put an end to that OT system of types and shadows. He is our high priest; He offered the once-for-all sacrifice for all time; He is the temple; etc. Those who call themselves Jews today are not true Jews. True Jews are those who are circumcised in their hearts. The Bible make this clear that the true seed of Abraham are those who believe in the Messiah, the Christ. Those who call themselves Jews today never returned in faith. Even today most are not practicing "Jews."

Again, what is the time restriction of the entire book of Revelation? Did not God clearly impart it to us? Was not John shown those things which were then to SHORTLY take place because the time was near (Rev. 1:1, 3; 22:6, 10)? All of the trumpets sounded within that time frame!

Preterist
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Old 12-01-2007, 04:58 AM
 
1,897 posts, read 2,155,028 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
The Bible says every knee will bow and every confess that Jesus is Lord. That has not happened because Jesus has not returned yet. Rev 22:4 says there will be no more evil, but evil is still here, for now.
Again, the Revelation itself makes the time frame clear. We must look there for our answers. John was shown those things which were in his time to SHORTLY take place; the time was then NEAR (Rev. 1:1, 3:22:6, 10). Where would there no longer be evil? In His kingdom which is not of this world. Jesus fully established His kingdom in A.D. 70 when He ended forever that OT system of types and shadows. Into His kingdom which is not of this world and was never of this world does not enter "anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie" Rev. 22:27). The context of Romans 14:11 involves a soon-to-come judgment which occurred in A.D. 70 when Christ judged that unrepentant generation. That judgment was then about to fall. They were about to be judged so they should not judge one another. Paul told Felix that judgment was ABOUT TO come, and Felix became so afraid that he sent Paul away (Acts 24:25). Christ's coming and finishing His work settled forever the basis upon which the righteous enter His kingdom and the unrighteous are cast into outer darkness. The judgment was made and continues to this day--at death, every tongue confesses that He is Lord either to entrance into His presence or to exclusion from it.

The timing of the Revelation is clear. We must seek our answers there--in the time frame leading up to the destruction of the temple and city in A.D. 70.

Preterist
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