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Old 12-01-2007, 04:09 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maui4me View Post
Luke 9:27, Luke 21:32, Matthew 16:28 and Mark 9:1. If the scriptures are to be taken literally as fundamentalists demand then where is he and who noted it? If he did return as the scriptures say, then why didn't anyone note it? He said he'd return the second time as a conquering king and messiah. Did anyone make note of this when it happened. The concept of Satan as many see him is still on the loose and no less powerful than before. If he lied then that opens a much larger can of theological worms. This is another of those concepts that the brethren don't want to think about very hard.

If the Jewish/Christian God is all powerful and omnipotent, then why did he allow Satan to stick around after his initial rebellion and taint the earthly creation? This doesn't make much sense nor does the trials of Job for that matter. Job, did you feel the love while your family was killed and all of your possessions taken from you? Did you feel like the ball in a cosmic pinball machine? Please discuss.
maui4me: I am merely trying to assess where you are coming from. Here is my question--are you here as a believer in the Bible or are you antagonistic to Christianity? I am just curious because you did not refer to God as your God but rather as the Jewish/Christian God and your post seems to attack the character of the God of the Bible in His dealings with Job. I apologize in advance if I have misunderstood you.

Respectfully, Preterist
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Old 12-01-2007, 04:26 AM
 
Location: The Silver State (from the UK)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
I dunno if this helps but according to Einstein time is relative, and I know that God is far smarter than Einstein.

Yes, it is weird that God is so much smarter than us mere mortals and yet be a far poorer writer than Shakespear, little to no knowledge of the world outside Jesus's place of residence, and if he took a science class he would almost certainly fail!

Although... he did create the heavens and the earth in the dark, as light came later, and that takes some serious skill!!
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Old 12-01-2007, 04:39 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
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Quote:
Yes, it is weird that God is so much smarter than us mere mortals and yet be a far poorer writer than Shakespear, little to no knowledge of the world outside Jesus's place of residence, and if he took a science class he would almost certainly fail!
True genius isn't concerned with little things like details, they only focus on the big picture.
I wouldn't be surprised if God had already moved on to another place that piqued His interest.
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Old 12-01-2007, 06:19 AM
 
Location: ARK-KIN-SAW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
arguy: Those are very good questions! And you are very correct in connecting Christ's return with the resurrection. The question then becomes-- what is the nature of the resurrection and how could it have literally taken place in A.D. 70? Again, what saith the Scriptures?

What is the nature of the resurrection body? I do not believe it can be equated with that which was seen following Christ's resurrection. Those physical people who were raised from their graves had to again suffer death. This is more correctly characterized as a resuscitation!

Before Christ brought full salvation when He ended forever the Old Covenant system and fully instituted the new in A.D. 70, those who died, both righteous and unrighteous, went to Hades. We seen this in Luke 16 and the account of Lazarus and the rich man. This was the sting of death. There was something in those bodies in Hades that was still not fitted for God's heavenly kingdom. 1 Corinthians reveals the hope of Paul which he imparted to his fellow saints. Notice the personal pronouns in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4.

Christ was the firstfruits then afterward those who are Christ's would be resurrected at His coming! At that time the end would come. But the end of what? The world? No, the end of the Old Covenant system that was even then becoming obsolete, growing old and ready to vanish away (Heb. 8) was to end. The resurrection clearly is tied to Christ's coming. But what is the nature of this resurrection and whom did it first involve?

Paul brought up questions posed by some--"how are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?" Paul answered that it is sown one thing and raised another. We are first of all natural. The natural comes first. Afterward comes the SPIRITUAL. We are first of all of the earth--dust. We first bore the image of Adam but later we bear the image of the heavenly Man. The body returns to that from which it was taken but that "body" which God makes as He pleases (15:38) enters the Kingdom of God which is not of this world. It is a heavenly realm into which no flesh and blood can enter (15:50). Corruption does not inherit incorruption--there must be a change. The first person plural personal pronoun "we" in this passage makes the things of which Paul was writing very relevant and significant to him and to his fellow believers. They would not all sleep--but they would be changed. Those first-century saints expected this in their lifetimes and they anticipated it with great joy. They were to soon be changed. Death would no longer have a hold on them. Unlike their forefathers, they would then go immediately into the presence of Jesus in His kingdom not of this world. There would be no more sleep in Hades! They were made fitted for heaven just as we all are since that time.

And since we are looking at time statements, let's consider the following:

In Acts 24:15 Paul told governor Felix "There is ABOUT TO BE (mello) a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust." He later warned Felix of a judgment that was then "about to come" (Acts 24:25).

Paul speaks of this issue again in 1 Thessalonians 4. He is speaking about himself and his fellow first-century saints when he says "We." They were not to sorrow as those who had no hope. Jesus would not leave their "sleeping" loved ones in Hades. They would rise first in their heavenly bodies and Paul and his fellow living saints would be joined together to them in Christ in the heavenlies. We are, therefore, in the world but not of the world. Paul says "WE who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air. And thus WE shall always be with the Lord." This was their comfort. Unless this affected them personally, there was no real comfort.

Since that time death has no sting and the grave has no victory for the believer. We are now all heavenly though we still live in this world. If we die and believe in Him, we live! If we live and believe in Him, we NEVER die! There is not some future resurrection with bodies of flesh and blood rising out of the earthly graves. We are already resurrected and gathered together in Christ. We are in Him and He is in us! That is the blessed hope. Someday we will shed forever these earthen vessels and our heavenly incorruptible, spiritual and immortable bodies will emerge as a butterfly from a cocoon. In a sense, the new creation that we have been made will not die.

God is spirit and He is real. That which is created in us is also spiritual and is no less real than God Himself.

How are the dead raised? In real spirit fitted for heaven--a kingdom not of this world. That took place in A.D. 70 when Jesus "came" in judgment, put an end to that old system of types and shadows, and delivered the kingdom to His Father.

Preterist
I have never heard of this belief before, ever until now.
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Old 12-01-2007, 06:46 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arguy1973 View Post
I have never heard of this belief before, ever until now.
arguy: How do you understand Jesus' expression in Matthew 24:34--"this generation?" Most futurists claim that genea (generation) can mean "race" (Jewish race) or they state that "this generation" simply means that generation which will be alive when these things begin to happen.
But is that how Jesus used this expression? How did He always use it elsewhere?

Matthew 11:16
Matthew 12:41
Matthew 12:42
Matthew 12:45
Matthew 23:36
Mark 8:12
Mark 8:38
Luke 7:31
Luke 11:29
Luke 11:30
Luke 11:31
Luke 11:32
Luke 11:50
Luke 11:51
Luke 17:25

In all of these verses Jesus is referring to His generation. This is the meaning He always gave to it. Is it, then, logical that He would suddenly give it another meaning in Matthew 24:34?

There are many other verses in which Jesus uses the word genea without the demonstrative pronoun "this." But in those cases also, He is referring to those of His generation.

Matthew 3:7
Matthew 12:34
Matthew 12:39
Matthew 16:4
Matthew 17:17
Matthew 23:33
Mark 9:19
Luke 3:7
Luke 9:41

The only reason futurists choose to give Jesus' words a strange and totally inconsistent meaning is because they cannot reconcile their concept of the nature of His coming with the events of the first century. But is it Jesus' words that should be changed or our understanding of the nature of His coming? For the preterist there is no need to give words unprecedented meanings as the words found in Matthew 24:29-31 as very consistent with prophetic and metaphornical apocalyptic language.

As a former futurist, I found that I could no longer abuse Jesus' words in such a way. If one is willing, there is a very plausible and consistent way to take Jesus at His word in Matthew 24:34 and do still justice to verses 29-31. The problem is that once people get a certain understanding embedded in their thinking and they have that approach preached and taught to them repeatedly, it is very difficult to find them open to any other perspective. I have been called an heretic, a liar, a child of Satan, and much worse because I dare go against the status quo. So be it. I do not rebel for the sake of rebelling but for the sake of the truth.

Jesus said "this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place" (Matthew 24:34). Since in every other place in which He used this expression He meant those contemporaneous to Him, I see no sound justification for not taking this same meaning in Matthew 24:34.

In Christ, Preterist
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Old 12-01-2007, 07:31 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ian6479 View Post
Yes, it is weird that God is so much smarter than us mere mortals and yet be a far poorer writer than Shakespear, little to no knowledge of the world outside Jesus's place of residence, and if he took a science class he would almost certainly fail!

Although... he did create the heavens and the earth in the dark, as light came later, and that takes some serious skill!!
Excuse the brief interruption, but I feel I must address this...

God is far superior in knowledge to us mere mortals, that is true. His writing as far as I'm concerned is much more important and much easier to read than Shakespear (if Bill even wrote his own plays). Of course, I accept God, so the Holy Spirit guides me when I read the Bible. Therefore, it makes sense to me and will not make sense to those who don't have the Spirit to guide them. God does know all, including everything outside of Israel and God invented the physical laws that man tries to understand. And, BTW, God created light on day one before he created the heavens (sun & stars - day 4) and the earth later on in day one.

... back to the regularly scheduled topic. Sorry for the interruption.
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Old 12-02-2007, 06:05 AM
 
Location: The Silver State (from the UK)
4,663 posts, read 7,335,798 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mams1559 View Post
Excuse the brief interruption, but I feel I must address this...

God is far superior in knowledge to us mere mortals, that is true. His writing as far as I'm concerned is much more important and much easier to read than Shakespear (if Bill even wrote his own plays). Of course, I accept God, so the Holy Spirit guides me when I read the Bible. Therefore, it makes sense to me and will not make sense to those who don't have the Spirit to guide them. God does know all, including everything outside of Israel and God invented the physical laws that man tries to understand. And, BTW, God created light on day one before he created the heavens (sun & stars - day 4) and the earth later on in day one.

... back to the regularly scheduled topic. Sorry for the interruption.

Chapter 1

1. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

This was taken from The Creation, according to the Book of Genesis

and as you can clearly see, light came after the creation of the heaven and earth. God's majesty is proven in his ability to create the heaven and the earth in the dark.. thats all i'm saying
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Old 12-02-2007, 06:54 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
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Wink Telling the truth requires no creativity so can only be easier than writing a play.

Originally Posted by mams1559
Quote:
God is far superior in knowledge to us mere mortals, that is true. His writing as far as I'm concerned is much more important and much easier to read than Shakespear (if Bill even wrote his own plays).
Neither God nor Christ wrote his own biography.
I mean writing a play is harder than writing a biography.
In a play you actually have to create things out of thin air, while a biography is merely jotting down what happened.
There is no ounce of creativity in a biography ( unless itís semi autobiographic).
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Old 12-03-2007, 04:36 PM
 
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What did Jesus mean by "this generation" in Matthew 23:36.

Truly, truly I say to you, ALL these things will come upon THIS GENERATION."

Preterist
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Old 12-04-2007, 08:29 AM
 
Location: PA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
Nikk: Jesus said "all these things." That includes everything He has just mentioned including His disciples seeing the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15).

Furthermore, the nation of Israel which was created by the U.N. and not by God bears no resemblance to OT Israel. The genealogies were all lost in the destruction of the temple and city in A.D. 70--for a reason. God put an end to that OT system of types and shadows. He is our high priest; He offered the once-for-all sacrifice for all time; He is the temple; etc. Those who call themselves Jews today are not true Jews. True Jews are those who are circumcised in their hearts. The Bible make this clear that the true seed of Abraham are those who believe in the Messiah, the Christ. Those who call themselves Jews today never returned in faith. Even today most are not practicing "Jews."

Again, what is the time restriction of the entire book of Revelation? Did not God clearly impart it to us? Was not John shown those things which were then to SHORTLY take place because the time was near (Rev. 1:1, 3; 22:6, 10)? All of the trumpets sounded within that time frame!

Preterist
The Abomination of desolation has not entered into the temple yet! So the desciple of Christ have not seen it yet.

Yes, Jews today do not are not true jews in that they require a faith in Jesus Christ to be considered a true Jew. But, God's plan is not full of mistakes. When he said to Abraham that he would bless him and then to his offspring many times that they would be his people, he did not forget this. God still has a plan for those who are the offspring of Abraham. Do you not remember the scripture where it say be careful for you have been grafted into the root, and how much easier it is for the original branch be grafted in and you removed. So, God can very easily graft in the original olive branch. Also remember that in revelation it talks about the two witnesses. The two witness are those of the gentils who have accepted Christ and the Jewish nation who has returned to him with their heart circumsised. This has been prophesied in scripture already.

As I have said God's word is a two edged sword. It has immediate meaning in our lives but also can mean something else long term. That is why we return to the word of God daily, because it is living and as relevant for today's believer as it was 2000 years ago.
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