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Old 12-04-2007, 08:34 AM
 
Location: PA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
What did Jesus mean by "this generation" in Matthew 23:36.

Truly, truly I say to you, ALL these things will come upon THIS GENERATION."

Preterist
In scipture there is sometimes a form of speaking that is associated to that time. "This generation" is just one of these forms. It refers to a group of people. But, you already have your own preconceived idea concerning the meaning and really do not want an answer.
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Old 12-04-2007, 10:24 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Nikk View Post
In scipture there is sometimes a form of speaking that is associated to that time. "This generation" is just one of these forms. It refers to a group of people. But, you already have your own preconceived idea concerning the meaning and really do not want an answer.
Nikk: I do want an answer. That is why I asked. This is the point (and not a preconceived idea): If "this generation" in Matthew 23:36 means those contemporaneous to Jesus, then "this generation" means those contemporaneous to Jesus in Matthew 24:34. I simply want to look at the words of Scripture, Nikk. My whole point here was to try as much as possible for all of us to NOT come to the words with preconceived ideas.

If we use the solid principle of hermeneutics of cross-referencing, we find that Jesus always used the expression "this generation" to mean those of His tiime! That is not to push a perspective or an agenda but to try to get at the truths of Scripture by letting them say what they say. If we are truly after truth, we will be willing to lay aside our preconceived ideas and accept what the Word clearly says.

That is my heart here, Nikk. Can we just enjoy fellowshiping around the Word and be open to possibilities? What do the words say?

In Christ, Preterist
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Old 12-05-2007, 09:23 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikk View Post
In scipture there is sometimes a form of speaking that is associated to that time. "This generation" is just one of these forms. It refers to a group of people. But, you already have your own preconceived idea concerning the meaning and really do not want an answer.
Nikk: I do want an answer. That is why I asked. I don't understand what you mean by "one of these forms." "This generation" refers to a specific group of people--those of Jesus' day.

My intention, if you read it in my opening post, was for all of us to try to look just at the words and try to NOT let our own preconceived ideas influence us. I did not give you preconceived ideas when I simply compared Matthew 23:36 to Matthew 24:34 using the words of Scripture themselves.

My point is this: If we are going to interpret "this generation" of Matthew 23:36 as those of Jesus' day, should we not, then, understand it the same way in Matthew 24:34? Jesus had just used this expression with reference to those of His generation (Mat. 23). Is it not logical to assume that He was using it the same way in Mat. 24?

In Christ, Preterist
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Old 12-05-2007, 09:37 AM
 
Location: Pikeville, Ky.
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Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
What did Jesus mean by "this generation" in Matthew 23:36.

Truly, truly I say to you, ALL these things will come upon THIS GENERATION."

Preterist
Imo, it means exactly what it says, if one believes the bible is the literal word out of the mouth of God, and put into the minds of righteous men to write down what He told them to. In that case God said "this generation" and he meant that generation..
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Old 12-05-2007, 02:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by blue62 View Post
Imo, it means exactly what it says, if one believes the bible is the literal word out of the mouth of God, and put into the minds of righteous men to write down what He told them to. In that case God said "this generation" and he meant that generation..
I agree, blue62! Would you, then, agree that "all these things" of Matthew 24 would have to take place within that generation to include Matthew 24:29-31?

Preterist
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Old 12-05-2007, 04:40 PM
 
Location: Pikeville, Ky.
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Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
I agree, blue62! Would you, then, agree that "all these things" of Matthew 24 would have to take place within that generation to include Matthew 24:29-31?

Preterist
I haved stated many times that imo there are errors of translation and ommissions in the bible..I believe that most of Matthew 24 is talking about the destruction of Jerusaleum which we know did occurr sometime in or around ad 70..IMO everything in the bible prophecies has already occurred except obviously the coming of Christ..There will be no room for omissions or mistranslations then, because every eye will see I think that the people wanted to know two things..What will be the end of the age, and what will be the sign of Christs return..Jesus answers both questions hereThe sign of the end of the age being the destruction of Jerusaleum..In verse 25. Christ ends his discussion of the end of the age by saying "See, I have told you ahead of time"...In verse 26 Christ discusses a completely different topic. the second coming of Christ.He givers a lengthy discussion including several parables, and tells them that not He nor the angels know the hour or the day when this shall occurr..I am not a bible scholar and these are just my beliefs from what I have come to understand from many years of searching not only the bible, but history, literature and ancient storytelling or oral history...
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Old 12-05-2007, 05:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by blue62 View Post
I haved stated many times that imo there are errors of translation and ommissions in the bible..I believe that most of Matthew 24 is talking about the destruction of Jerusaleum which we know did occurr sometime in or around ad 70..IMO everything in the bible prophecies has already occurred except obviously the coming of Christ..There will be no room for omissions or mistranslations then, because every eye will see I think that the people wanted to know two things..What will be the end of the age, and what will be the sign of Christs return..Jesus answers both questions hereThe sign of the end of the age being the destruction of Jerusaleum..In verse 25. Christ ends his discussion of the end of the age by saying "See, I have told you ahead of time"...In verse 26 Christ discusses a completely different topic. the second coming of Christ.He givers a lengthy discussion including several parables, and tells them that not He nor the angels know the hour or the day when this shall occurr..I am not a bible scholar and these are just my beliefs from what I have come to understand from many years of searching not only the bible, but history, literature and ancient storytelling or oral history...
blue62: And then after He mentions the things which you say have not yet occurred (verses 26f) Jesus says that "this generation will by no means pass away till ALL these things take place." What was He saying there? Was He now skipping verses 26ff and only including verses 3-25 in the all things? When did He say He was breaking all of this up? Respectfully, blue, because I take you at your word that you have studied these things, doesn't Jesus mean by all these things EVERYTHING preceding verse 34?

After all of your studying, I would ask that you study just one more thing--the possibility that you just might be misunderstanding the nature of Christ's coming. If you analyze it in the way "comings" were depicted in the OT, you can perhaps see that Jesus' coming in judgment (the judgment He predicted against those Jews of chapter 23) would be described with similar language. Judgment from God is often pictured as being accompanied by upheavals in the heavens and on the earth with catastrophic depictions to convey the severity and tremendous, far-ranging consequences of unbridled disobedience (e.g. clouds, trumpets, stars falling, the earth being shaken, the sun and moon not giving their light, etc.).

My question to you is the question I asked myself about ten years ago while a die-hard dispensationalist--are we dividing up into different time periods the events depicted in Matthew 24 because the context itself gives clear indication that we should do so, or are we dividing it because taking it as a unit does not fit our understanding of how Christ would come? Does it really make sense to you to have verses 3-25 pertain to A.D. 70, then have verses 26-33 refer to our future (without any clear indication on Jesus' part), and then have His time indicator ("this generation" revert back to include only those verse preceding verse 26? Why didn't Jesus simply say "this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place" immediately after verse 26 and then go on to what you believe to be still unfulfilled prophecies?

The disciples' questions were threefold but they all referred to the same time frame--the desolation of the temple and city, the end of that present age (not the world), and His coming. Remember that in chapter 10 He had told them that they themselves would not finish going through the cities of Israel before He came! In chapter 16 He told them that some of them would not taste death till THEY saw Him coming in His kingdom. In chapter 26 He told Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin that THEY would SEE Him sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the CLOUDS of heaven. James said "the coming of the Lord is AT HAND" (James 5:8). Peter said "the end of all things is AT HAND" (1 Peter 4:7). Both James and Peter are speaking of that same "end of the age" inquired about in Matthew 24! It all ties together.

At His coming "every eye" would see Him--even those who pierced Him. Clearly, the every eye, then, involves those contemporaneous to those who pierced Him and would also include Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin! This verse is found in Revelation 1:7 which is sandwiched in between the statement concerning John--that he was to be shown the things which were then to take place SHORTLY because the time was AT HAND" (Rev. 1:1, 3; 22:6, 10). Did they see a literally gigantic Jesus riding on a horse with a sword coming out of His mouth? Is that what their forefathers saw when God came in judgment against them in OT times and destroyed their city and temple? I do not believe so. They "saw" the evidence of God's visitation in the rubble and fires where there magnificent temple and city had once stood. They "saw" God's coming in the deaths of their fellow Jews and in the years of captivity that followed the assault on their country.

If someone who had never heard of eschatology read Matthew 24, what do you think his assessment would be? Would not his first inclination be that Jesus was talking about one time frame and that all of the things He predicted were to come upon that generation? Isn't that the most normal and cohesive way of taking these verses? If we are to take "this generation" in the literal way as you and I both agree we should, then are we not compelled to find the fulfillment of "all these things" in that generation?

Preterist
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Old 12-05-2007, 07:34 PM
 
Location: Pikeville, Ky.
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Default Preterist

I understand this is one of the most misunderstood and debated verses in the bible..I also know that some believe that Jesus did return spiritually at the destruction of Jerusaleum and set up his kingdom..Again, if one takes the bible literally how come he didn't appear to everyone as He promised?I don't know what is meant by Matther 24:24, but I don't think it is a matter of my salvation..Again, imo, it is so controversal and causes so many arguements that it has to be a misinterpertation,because God is not a God of confusion.
This exhausting arguement along with many others on bible interpertation is the reason I don't take it (bible) literal..I read the bible daily and gain comfort and peace from the message it gives me about Gods love and the reward of an after life for our belief and service. My study on the bible,and other things I mentioned were done strictly on my own, with a lot of prayer that the spirit would guide me and let me know what I need to know..I admire your steadfastness and ability to debate very wisely your beliefs..It is hard for someone like myself to scripturally defend my beliefs, and I truly don't feel that I need to, because I try to live my beliefs and hope that my actions , thoughts and prayers will be my testimony
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Old 12-06-2007, 05:09 AM
 
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Originally Posted by blue62 View Post
I understand this is one of the most misunderstood and debated verses in the bible..I also know that some believe that Jesus did return spiritually at the destruction of Jerusaleum and set up his kingdom..Again, if one takes the bible literally how come he didn't appear to everyone as He promised?I don't know what is meant by Matther 24:24, but I don't think it is a matter of my salvation..Again, imo, it is so controversal and causes so many arguements that it has to be a misinterpertation,because God is not a God of confusion.
This exhausting arguement along with many others on bible interpertation is the reason I don't take it (bible) literal..I read the bible daily and gain comfort and peace from the message it gives me about Gods love and the reward of an after life for our belief and service. My study on the bible,and other things I mentioned were done strictly on my own, with a lot of prayer that the spirit would guide me and let me know what I need to know..I admire your steadfastness and ability to debate very wisely your beliefs..It is hard for someone like myself to scripturally defend my beliefs, and I truly don't feel that I need to, because I try to live my beliefs and hope that my actions , thoughts and prayers will be my testimony
blue62: I praise God for your testimony! That is what draws others to Him. And there is no better way to gain biblical insight than prayer and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

I guess it might appear on the surface that such topics as "this generation" in Matthew 24:34 are irrelevant in the larger scheme of things of the faith, but when a misunderstanding of it and related matters lead scoffers and mockers to attack the trustworthiness of God's Word and Jesus' claim to be God in the flesh, then I believe that we must do all within our power to defend them.

I sense from your posts that you truly love the Lord and His Word. This issue of time references is important because there are those who acknowledge that Jesus said He was coming back to those of His generation. But they are also very much aware that many in the Church today claim He has not yet returned. These scoffers point their fingers at Jesus and label Him a false prophet for making claims He did not fulfill. They also realize that the apostles wrote that Jesus would return in their lifetimes, but the Church today denies that He did. The scoffers again point their fingers and denounce the inspired writers of the Bible as false teachers and by extension denounce the Bible itself as filled with errors and thereby proclaim Christianity a false religion. The modern Church's explanation using dual fulfillments or postponement theories is, I believe, totally inadequate and does not satisfy.

As I have stated before, this issue goes beyond one isolated verse (Mat. 24:34). There are over 100 time references in the NT. I believe it is encumbant upon students of Scripture to deal honestly with these and other issues of our faith before an unbelieving world. Our many divisions make the Church vulnerable to attack.

As far as everyone seeing His return, I am assuming you are getting that from Revelation 1:7--"every eye will see Him." Again, the context of that verse follows the statement in Revelation 1:1--John was to be shown those things which were to SHORTLY take place because the time was then AT HAND (Rev. 1:3). This clear time retriction limits the "every eye" statement. Also, notice that the "every eye" includes those who pierced Him. A further clarification comes from the statement that "all the TRIBES of the LAND will mourn because of Him." Clearly, this is a very Jewish event best fulfilled in the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem in A.D. 70. As their forefathers had "seen" the coming of God in wrath upon them in OT times and had mourned because of Him, these first-century disobedient and unbelieving Jews also "saw" Him coming in like manner in judgment upon them. Jesus personally told Caiaphas and the rulers of the Temple--"Hereafter, YOU will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power and COMING on the CLOUDS of heaven" (Mat. 26:64). They and those who pierced Him "saw" Christ come in wrath and judgment upon that generation of apostate Jews when He used the Roman armies to desolate their temple and city in A.D. 70!

I pray you will continue to study these issues as the Holy Spirit so moves you. We can make much progress through little steps forward. I have enjoyed your questions and your comments and hope you will come back around occasionally to give your insights.

In Christ, Preterist
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Old 12-06-2007, 08:51 AM
 
Location: Pikeville, Ky.
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Originally Posted by Preterist View Post

I pray you will continue to study these issues as the Holy Spirit so moves you. We can make much progress through little steps forward. I have enjoyed your questions and your comments and hope you will come back around occasionally to give your insights.

In Christ, Preterist
Thanks Preterist, I imagine I shall question and pray about matters of the bible and the confusion it causes until I learn the truth about everything in the next life..I believe that all of us who continuously search and seek for the meaning of scripture will be blessed for our need to know Him better..
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