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Old 04-25-2008, 11:44 AM
 
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only earth is based on time , with god and all heaven they live in enturnity
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Old 05-11-2008, 08:03 AM
 
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Originally Posted by crystal-sea View Post
hey HE is the ancient of days. He is from everlasting to everlasting. He is alpha and omega the beginning and the end. the book of revelations says He was, and is and is to come so that covers time in my book to, which means he did not lie nor is He late.

you ever heard people say, "He may not be there when you want him, but he's always on time."

what in the world could they be saying? here the point of that statement.
whenever we want to be somewhere we are either early or late. in order to be any place on time we still must leave early, but with God since he is perfect he can neither be too early, or too late, but he can only BE ON TIME.

ALSO
whenever he returns it will be too soon for all of us. sinners will wish for more time to change, and saints will wish for more time to do more. either way, any time HE returns will be SOON as he said, but we'll be thinking too soon when he comes.

hmmm, He's Father time aint he? so whenever he comes it will be the right and perfect TIME.

tee-hee-hee
Yes, God is always on time. And when He states in His word that something is happening SOON, he means SOON not LATER!

Preterist
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Old 05-13-2008, 03:38 AM
 
Location: Texas
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Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
Yes, God is always on time. And when He states in His word that something is happening SOON, he means SOON not LATER!

Preterist
Futurism is a multi-million dollar industry. Applications of scripture to present/future 'end time' events are as frequent as they are failed and as popular as they are perverse. I've heard various scenarios since the 60's, my mother has heard them since the 40's and my grandmother since the 20's.

I can see *certain* problems with full preterism as well, but the stretches made to get futurism to work are just... well... interesting to watch (as is anything which twists and turns wildly to arrive at a given destination).

An example I've heard is "Well, Jesus made it SEEM like he was coming back during the apostles days - but that was just to keep them on their toes"

Another is (heard this one?) "Israel is God's time clock. When Israel was not a nation - all that time didn't count" (God's clock was turned off) and now that it's baaaaack, the clock restarts and now THIS is the final generation who will see all these things Jesus spoke of.

So, yes, listening to a futurist reconcile scripture with their position is like watching a good gymnastic presentation.

Listening to a preterist do the same is like "How did I miss all that???"

Easy, I was too busy watching the gymnastic show.

blessings,
-Byron
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Old 05-13-2008, 04:44 AM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,094,662 times
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Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
Futurism is a multi-million dollar industry. Applications of scripture to present/future 'end time' events are as frequent as they are failed and as popular as they are perverse. I've heard various scenarios since the 60's, my mother has heard them since the 40's and my grandmother since the 20's.

I can see *certain* problems with full preterism as well, but the stretches made to get futurism to work are just... well... interesting to watch (as is anything which twists and turns wildly to arrive at a given destination).

An example I've heard is "Well, Jesus made it SEEM like he was coming back during the apostles days - but that was just to keep them on their toes"

Another is (heard this one?) "Israel is God's time clock. When Israel was not a nation - all that time didn't count" (God's clock was turned off) and now that it's baaaaack, the clock restarts and now THIS is the final generation who will see all these things Jesus spoke of.

So, yes, listening to a futurist reconcile scripture with their position is like watching a good gymnastic presentation.

Listening to a preterist do the same is like "How did I miss all that???"

Easy, I was too busy watching the gymnastic show.

blessings,
-Byron
firstborn: Could you please explain the specific "gymnastics" of preterism. Thanks.

In Christ, Preterist

Last edited by Preterist; 05-13-2008 at 05:38 AM..
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Old 05-13-2008, 12:56 PM
 
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before jesus died on the cross or tree; he said iam comming back ,so on the threed day jesus rose from the dead and he showed himself to all the disiples ... the disiples said look its a ghost ,jesus said it is i jesus with a glorified body, this body was flesh and bone but it can be invisable or it can walk threw walls .[paraphasing]jesus said the way you see me leave ill come again and recive you like manner, that day didnt come yet....now the book of daniel says chapter 9 says 70 weeks are determined and 2weeks.... since the prophesy was given to the time of jesus on the mount of olives , he said jerusalem jerusalem if thou had only known,even thou at least this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes..[luke 19;42] so jesus told the disiples his death, they said to jesus .....when will you restore the kingdom of israell ,jesus said to the disiples ....its not for you to know......if isael have not been blind ,jesus would have established his kingdom and no gentile would have been saved....nobody would have come in exciept for the house of isreal.... but god and his wisdom,stopped the clock...... paul call it the mystery ....it was 483years, but 490 years are determond.so since that time jesus was on the cross ,....god's clock was stopped,....now god told isreal while your blinded, and the clock has stopped ,iam going to bring in the whole world inn while your blinded, all the gentiles will come inn ...[romans..ch.11,25] so when god starts the clock the rapture will take place ,or the catching away of the saints the day of the lod ,... and there will be 7 years left on t god's clock.......
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Old 05-13-2008, 04:05 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,094,662 times
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Originally Posted by mr jack View Post
before jesus died on the cross or tree; he said iam comming back ,so on the threed day jesus rose from the dead and he showed himself to all the disiples ... the disiples said look its a ghost ,jesus said it is i jesus with a glorified body, this body was flesh and bone but it can be invisable or it can walk threw walls .[paraphasing]jesus said the way you see me leave ill come again and recive you like manner, that day didnt come yet....now the book of daniel says chapter 9 says 70 weeks are determined and 2weeks.... since the prophesy was given to the time of jesus on the mount of olives , he said jerusalem jerusalem if thou had only known,even thou at least this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes..[luke 19;42] so jesus told the disiples his death, they said to jesus .....when will you restore the kingdom of israell ,jesus said to the disiples ....its not for you to know......if isael have not been blind ,jesus would have established his kingdom and no gentile would have been saved....nobody would have come in exciept for the house of isreal.... but god and his wisdom,stopped the clock...... paul call it the mystery ....it was 483years, but 490 years are determond.so since that time jesus was on the cross ,....god's clock was stopped,....now god told isreal while your blinded, and the clock has stopped ,iam going to bring in the whole world inn while your blinded, all the gentiles will come inn ...[romans..ch.11,25] so when god starts the clock the rapture will take place ,or the catching away of the saints the day of the lod ,... and there will be 7 years left on t god's clock.......
Greetings mr Jack: Scripture seems clear to me that it was always God's purpose to bring in the Gentiles. In Genesis 12 God told Abraham that in him "all the families of the earth" would be blessed." It was also always God's plan that He would send His Son to redeem the lost. We see this clearly in the protevangelium (first Gospel) of Genesis 3:15.

Also, Jesus told His disciples right there with Him (in John 14) that He was coming back to THEM. They were troubled in their spirits because He said He was going away and that where He was going they could not at that time follow. He clearly told THEM--"YOU shall follow Me afterward" (John 13:36). His words of comfort are addressed to them. He was going to go away to prepare a place for THEM that where He was they would soon be also.

Remember that He had warned them in Matthew 10 and 24 about the severe persecutions THEY were going to experience. Count the number of "YOUs" in these chapters. Jesus is speaking directly to THEM about things that were going to happen personally to THEM. BUT He tells them that THEY will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man COMES!" He also told THEM in Matthew 16 that some of THEM would live to see His coming--"There are some standing HERE who shall not taste death till THEY see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom" (Mt. 16:28).

God's time never stopped. From Genesis to Revelation is one continuous uninterrupted story of grace and redemption. Jesus never intended to establish His kingdom on earth. The nation of Israel, the Temple, the Priesthood, the Sacrifices are all TYPES and SHADOWS of the reality and the substance of those things found only in Christ and His Kingdom which he clearly said was NOT of this world--and was never meant to be. The OT earthly, temporary kingdom was part of that schoolmaster (Gal. 4) that was always intended to be that which pointed to Christ and His eternal Kingdom.

The events of Daniel (the 70 weeks) are also continuous. There is no gap. Daniel's 70 weeks speak of the time from the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem to the time of Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. He finished the transgression; He made an end of sin by paying the price for it (Note: He did NOT make an end of sinning); He made reconciliation for iniquity; He brought in everylasting righteousness (in His Kingdom that is NOT of this world); He put an end to sacrifice and offering by His atoning death! The covenant that is predicted in Daniel 9 is the new covenant in His blood (Jer. 31; Luke 22). The abomination and the desolation are those predicted in Matthew 23 and 24 which took place sometime during the Jewish Wars and culminated in the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in A.D. 70!

As for the "Rapture"--there is no such word found in the Scriptures. It is grounded in 1 Thessalonians 4 where Paul speaks of THEIR being caught up to meet the Lord in the air. This entire passage is directed at those first-century saints. Whatever this catching up entailed, it involved THEM and not us.

In Christ, Preterist
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Old 05-13-2008, 08:46 PM
 
205 posts, read 347,283 times
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Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
Greetings mr Jack: Scripture seems clear to me that it was always God's purpose to bring in the Gentiles. In Genesis 12 God told Abraham that in him "all the families of the earth" would be blessed." It was also always God's plan that He would send His Son to redeem the lost. We see this clearly in the protevangelium (first Gospel) of Genesis 3:15.

Also, Jesus told His disciples right there with Him (in John 14) that He was coming back to THEM. They were troubled in their spirits because He said He was going away and that where He was going they could not at that time follow. He clearly told THEM--"YOU shall follow Me afterward" (John 13:36). His words of comfort are addressed to them. He was going to go away to prepare a place for THEM that where He was they would soon be also.

Remember that He had warned them in Matthew 10 and 24 about the severe persecutions THEY were going to experience. Count the number of "YOUs" in these chapters. Jesus is speaking directly to THEM about things that were going to happen personally to THEM. BUT He tells them that THEY will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man COMES!" He also told THEM in Matthew 16 that some of THEM would live to see His coming--"There are some standing HERE who shall not taste death till THEY see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom" (Mt. 16:28).

God's time never stopped. From Genesis to Revelation is one continuous uninterrupted story of grace and redemption. Jesus never intended to establish His kingdom on earth. The nation of Israel, the Temple, the Priesthood, the Sacrifices are all TYPES and SHADOWS of the reality and the substance of those things found only in Christ and His Kingdom which he clearly said was NOT of this world--and was never meant to be. The OT earthly, temporary kingdom was part of that schoolmaster (Gal. 4) that was always intended to be that which pointed to Christ and His eternal Kingdom.

The events of Daniel (the 70 weeks) are also continuous. There is no gap. Daniel's 70 weeks speak of the time from the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem to the time of Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. He finished the transgression; He made an end of sin by paying the price for it (Note: He did NOT make an end of sinning); He made reconciliation for iniquity; He brought in everylasting righteousness (in His Kingdom that is NOT of this world); He put an end to sacrifice and offering by His atoning death! The covenant that is predicted in Daniel 9 is the new covenant in His blood (Jer. 31; Luke 22). The abomination and the desolation are those predicted in Matthew 23 and 24 which took place sometime during the Jewish Wars and culminated in the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in A.D. 70!

As for the "Rapture"--there is no such word found in the Scriptures. It is grounded in 1 Thessalonians 4 where Paul speaks of THEIR being caught up to meet the Lord in the air. This entire passage is directed at those first-century saints. Whatever this catching up entailed, it involved THEM and not us.

In Christ, Preterist
yes..its all good
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Old 05-14-2008, 02:10 AM
 
Location: Texas
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Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
firstborn: Could you please explain the specific "gymnastics" of preterism. Thanks.

In Christ, Preterist
Wow, it was late when I wrote that and I had to laugh myself at my analogy. Re-read though and you will see by 'gymnastics' I was referring to the twisting and turning needed for futurism to work.

The *certain* problems with full preterism I mentioned mostly have to do with "There shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away"

blessings,
- Byron
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Old 05-17-2008, 10:03 AM
 
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Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
Wow, it was late when I wrote that and I had to laugh myself at my analogy. Re-read though and you will see by 'gymnastics' I was referring to the twisting and turning needed for futurism to work.

The *certain* problems with full preterism I mentioned mostly have to do with "There shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away"

blessings,
- Byron
Byron, I am sorry it has taken so long to get back to you. May is a busy month with school winding down, Mother's Day, two birthdays in our family, etc.!

The passage you mentioned from Revelation 21 is certainly not an easy one to understand. But since it occurs within the time restraint given in both chapter 1 and chapter 22 (things which must SHORTLY take place and the time is NEAR), I look for something that fits within it.

Because of the great splendor described, the question naturally comes to mind: Is this heaven or earth? The "earthly" attributes portray appear to paint a picture of a perfect existence here on earth. There is the "holy city" coming down from heaven and the tabernacle of God is said to be with men, etc. But is that the only interpretation? What is meant by "new heavens and new earth?"

Keeping in mind the symbolic nature of the Revelation and the time restrictions placed upon it, I believe that we must look for a meaning for "new heaven and new earth" within the setting of the pre-A.D. 70 era.
It is not a vision of a future beyond far beyond John's day (e.g. our day), but describes events that are "near" and about to take place "shortly."

Most would agree that the central object in this vision is the New Jerusalem.
First of all, this New Jerusalem is consisted referred to as "heavenly." This is the city referred to in Hebrews 12:22 as the "heavenly Jerusalem." Paul contrasts the Jerusalem "which now is" with the Jerusalem "above" (Gal. 4:26). Who are the inhabitants of this New Jerusalem or heavenly Jerusalem? They are the "spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb. 12:23). It is the "city of the Living God"; there are "innumerable angels" there.

Abraham and the OT saints longed for this city. Abraham is said to have "dwelt in the land of promise AS in a foreign country" (Heb. 11:8). He never saw earthly Jerusalem and earthly Israel as his final destination, home or hope. All the OT saints "died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off." And what they saw convinced them that they were "strangers and pilgrims ON THE EARTH" (Heb. 11:13). They sought a "homeland." They desired "a better, that is, a heavenly country" in which God prepared for them a "city" (Heb. 11). It is sad to me that so many futurists long for these OT saints things for which they themselves never longed!

It is in this heavenly country and heavenly city in which God and the Lamb are the Temple and in which dwells righteousness that there is no death, sorrow, crying or pain. The old heaven and the old earth, then, can be seen as the earthly system of Judaism which merely symbolized the new (with its earthly priesthood, earthly temple, and earthly country and land). When Jesus returned in A.D. 70 and judged that system, it was made old by the coming of the new. This is wonderfully portrayed by the writer of Hebrews in chapter 8 in the description of the New Covenant predicted by Jeremiah (Jer. 31:31ff). The imperfection and total inadequacy of the first made the second necessary (Heb. 8:7). But even this imperfection was part of God's plan from the beginning. The coming of the new covenant "made the first obsolete" (Heb. 8:13). Even in the day of the writing of Hebrews the old covenant is pictured as "becoming obsolete and growing old" and "ready to vanish away."

Following the destruction of the earthly Jerusalem and the glorious Temple in A.D. 70, Judaism in all of its necessary and fundamental respects "vanished away." Christianity and the New Temple (spiritual) and the New Jerusalem (heavenly) eternally took its place. The hope of all mankind, whether Jew or Gentile, is to enter this heavenly city through belief in the Lamb Who is its temple and its light. We are citizens of it at the new birth, but we do not fully enter it until we pass from this realm. Then there will be no death, no sorrow, no crying, and no pain. This is what John saw.

In Christ, Preterist
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Old 05-17-2008, 01:07 PM
 
Location: NC
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The passage you mentioned from Revelation 21 is certainly not an easy one to understand. But since it occurs within the time restraint given in both chapter 1 and chapter 22 (things which must SHORTLY take place and the time is NEAR), I look for something that fits within it.
Hi, the word that is translated as "soon" or "shortly" in this passage and some others is "en tachei" from what I am studying and can also be translated "with swiftness, with speed", meaning that the events which were to take place would happen suddenly, not necessarily that they would happen soon. I do believe, however, that many prophecies were fulfilled in 70 A.D. and there are some that have yet to be fulfilled. God bless.
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