Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 12-14-2007, 03:08 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,479,585 times
Reputation: 289

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Does God live in human time?
I mean if you are eternal, I'd imagine that time gets a whole complete different meaning.
What is a few 100 years compared to infinity?
Tricky D: If you were God and you created time but lived outside of the confines of time, how would you communicate with the people you created and put within time?

God communicates with us in words we will understand. He does not use human time indicators to express His realm of time. He uses human time indicators to express time as we know it and live it.

When God says "soon," He means soon as we understand it. The same is true of "at hand" and "about to" and "near." What kind of God would He be if He used these words in His communication with us but meant them in a way we would not be expected to understand them? God is not a God of confusion. He says what He means and He means what He says.

James could not be more clear. What did he mean when the Holy Spirit led him to say "The COMING of the Lord is AT HAND?" (James 5:8).

What did Peter mean when he said, "The end of ALL things is AT HAND?" (1 Peter 4:7).

We must deal honestly with these time references. Are you aware that the enemies of Christ and His Church today accuse our Lord, His apostles and His Word of being false? They recognize what Jesus was saying and what the apostles were saying concerning Christ's soon return (to them). They point their fingers at the Church which in large part denies this and say, "Jesus is a false prophet; the writers of the Bible are false teachers, and Christianity is a false religion.

How do the dispensationalist's postponement theories and dual fulfillment theories satisfy these justified attacks. They don't; they can't.

What will you do with the time statements in the Bible?

Preterist
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 12-14-2007, 03:12 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,479,585 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
No God does not live in human time. 2 Peter 3:8 "But you must not forget dear friends that a day is like a thousand years to the Lord, and a thousand years like a day".
Does that mean the thousand year millennium is only one day long?

I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA: No, God does not live in human time--but He communicates with us within the human time He Himself created with words that are fitting to that realm.

With all respect, ILNC, you cannot use 2 Peter 3:8 to nullify the numerous time references in God's Word. There are over 100 of them! Must we wonder every time we see a time reference whether it means what it characteristically means?

Would you deal with at least one time reference I have provided in its context and with audience relevance in mind?

Sincerely, Preterist
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-14-2007, 03:23 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,568 posts, read 16,180,468 times
Reputation: 1573
Originally Posted by Preterist
Quote:
God communicates with us in words we will understand.
The thing is that the meaning of words is not written in stone. Words are alive and over time they change and grow like any other living being.

And then you have words spoken by a poet and words spoken by a scientist.
Although they may speak the same language, they convey different meanings.
A scientist is literal and his words are often cold and dead, while a poet is symbolic and his words are often alive and full of mystery.
When you interpret the words of a poet as a scientist, you will most likely miss the message completely.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-14-2007, 04:23 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,479,585 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
In that case 6 days might mean 6000 years, so it might have taken God 6000 years to create the earth.
Tricky D: 2 Peter 3:8 was never intended to be a formula for counting time. But when God says "soon" He means soon as we understand it.

Again, what will you do with James 5:8--"The coming of the Lord is AT HAND." And 1 Peter 4:7--"The end of ALL things is AT HAND."

The time statements in these and the many other verses have nothing to do with 2 Peter 3:8!

Preterist
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-14-2007, 07:09 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,479,585 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Originally Posted by PreteristThe thing is that the meaning of words is not written in stone. Words are alive and over time they change and grow like any other living being.

And then you have words spoken by a poet and words spoken by a scientist.
Although they may speak the same language, they convey different meanings.
A scientist is literal and his words are often cold and dead, while a poet is symbolic and his words are often alive and full of mystery.
When you interpret the words of a poet as a scientist, you will most likely miss the message completely.
Tricky D: And when you take the words of a scientist and interpret them as a poet, "you will most likely miss the message completely." Is that how you understand language in your everyday life? When someone tells you that he is coming to visit you soon, do you not understand him to mean in a little while? Would you not be surprised if he didn't show up for twenty years?

The inspired writers of God's word give no indication that they are using time terms in any other way than the normal way. The context in which they are found is not poetic. These time references are found in simple letters written by inspired writers to their contemporaries. There is nothing symbolic about the term "at hand" in these contexts. Nothing. There is no mystery.

In all kindness, may I ask you a nonantagonistic question? Can you ask yourself why you stumble over such simple terms, Tricky D? Is it because you come to them with preconceived ideas that don't fit if you take the terms literally and at their face value? I am not attacking here--I am simply asking you as we must all ask ourselves--are we letting the words say what they mean and then gaining our doctrine from them or are we reading our doctrines into them? That is always a real danger for any student of God's Word.

What is your "gut" reaction when you read time statements, Tricky D? Is there something in you that first of all wants to take them at face value? What is it that makes you talk yourself out of that? Does not the word SHORTLY and NEAR in Revelation 1 and 22 trouble you? Do you not wonder about James' meaning in James 5:8 when he simply says the coming of the Lord is NEAR?

If words keep evolving as you suggest, how can we know anything? How can we trust anything in God's Word if words don't mean what they mean?

For over 20 years I was a die-hard dispensationalist. Much of what I believed and taught to others was a recapitulation of things I had been taught. So engrained in my mind were certain teachings that I found myself redefining simple words or ignoring words that didn't fit. But I finally became fed up with the fanciful speculations of such as Tim LaHaye and Hal Lindsey and the date setters and decided to start fresh. I scrapped everything I had been taught and approached the Scriptures with an open mind. What I discovered was not what I had been taught but nearly the exact opposite!

Jesus said He was coming back to those disciples in their lifetimes and the inspired writers said He was coming back in their lifetimes. I could no longer redefine or ignore simple time statements. I am not alone in this assessment. Preterism is making great inroads. It is a reformation whose time has come. The error of premillennial dispensationalism which has enjoyed wide acceptance for many years is seriously being biblically challenged. As the date setting continues and as the Lord's return does not take place, people become more and more disillusioned by those who will say "soon" and expect us to believe them when they, at the same time, deny that same consideration to the words of our Lord when He said soon. Why should we believe them?

I hope I have not offended you in anyway. It is merely my desire that we look carefully and analytically at God's Word, gleaning out of it (exegesis) and not reading into it (eisegesis). I am truly interested in what you believe based upon your indepth study of these issues. I trust that we can discuss these things recognizing that we are brothers and sisters in Christ inspite of our differences. I am not claiming to know everything and am truly willing to change my mind at any time IF someone can demonstrate definitively with the Scriptures where I am in error.

Thanks for your thoughts!

In Christ, Preterist
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-14-2007, 07:56 PM
 
Location: Blankity-blank!
11,446 posts, read 16,130,059 times
Reputation: 6958
Can god tell time?
Obviously not, otherwise he would know he has become obsolete and cease existing.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-15-2007, 02:06 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,568 posts, read 16,180,468 times
Reputation: 1573
Originally Posted by Preterist
Quote:
The inspired writers of God's word give no indication that they are using time terms in any other way than the normal way.
All I'm saying is that what the writers of God's word find normal and what we who live in 2007 find normal are 2 complete different things.
To the writers of God's word slavery is completely normal, women are inferior to men, might makes right, earth is the centre of the universe and some other things we modern humans do not take for granted anymore.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-15-2007, 06:41 AM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,479,585 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Originally Posted by Preterist All I'm saying is that what the writers of God's word find normal and what we who live in 2007 find normal are 2 complete different things.
To the writers of God's word slavery is completely normal, women are inferior to men, might makes right, earth is the centre of the universe and some other things we modern humans do not take for granted anymore.
Tricky D: The acceptance of slavery, the belief that women are inferior to men, and placing the earth at the center of the universe are all misconceptions that have been corrected over time. But these have nothing to do with the meanings of individual words.

If you would do a study of the time statement terms, you would discover that you accept them completely in passages that have no eschatological significance. Why do they then lose their normal meanings when found in eschatological contexts? Let's take the word engus ("near" or "at hand") as an example:

John 2:13--"Now the Pasover of the Jews was AT HAND."
Philippians 4:5--"The Lord is AT HAND."
Revelation 1:3; 22:10--"The time is AT HAND."

How do you understand the term in John 2:13? In verse 13 the Jews' Passover is said to be at hand and then in verse 23 it arrives. It was said to be at hand and then soon after it occurred. You have no problem with the time frame here. Why, then, does this same Greek expression lose that nearness aspect in Philippians and Revelation? It doesn't!

What about the term tachos?

Acts 25:4--(said of Festus concerning Caesarea)--"he himself was about to go there SHORTLY."
Revelation 1:1; 22:6--"things which must take place SHORTLY."

Festus was leaving for Caesarea SOON and the things which John was shown were to take place SOON. If you take the word in its normal sense in Acts 25:4, why do you not take it that same way in Revelation 1:1 and 22:6?

A word study of these words would reveal that they have not changed over the years. Soon meant soon then and it means soon now. Shortly meant shortly then and it means shortly now. When words do change they change consistently so that within a particular setting they have the same meaning. And in reality, when words do change over time, these changes are normally found in nouns and not in adverbs. Time expressions remain very consistent over time!

But what futurists attempt to do is change the meaning of the same word within the same historical era--in other words, from verse to verse. Soon means soon in some verses (noneschatological) but not in others (eschatological). That is neglecting clear and proper hermeneutical principles which help safeguard us from error. While there might be a slight variance in nuance in a word from verse to verse, there remains a general consistency.

Clearly when James said "The coming of the Lord is AT HAND" he meant soon or near. When Peter wrote "The end of all things is AT HAND" he meant soon or near. When John was shown the things that were then SHORTLY to take place, the meaning is soon. And when he was told that "the time is AT HAND," he was told that the time was soon or near.

Only one's preconceived eschatological assumptions lead one to misconstrue the clear meanings in these time references. I know. I've been there. The question we must all ask ourselves is are we willing to let the Word of God say what it says regardless of what it does to our preconceived, long-held, and precious pre-suppositions?

Have a great day in the Lord, Tricky D?

In Christ, Preterist
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-15-2007, 07:16 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,568 posts, read 16,180,468 times
Reputation: 1573
Quote:
Clearly when James said "The coming of the Lord is AT HAND" he meant soon or near. When Peter wrote "The end of all things is AT HAND" he meant soon or near. When John was shown the things that were then SHORTLY to take place, the meaning is soon. And when he was told that "the time is AT HAND," he was told that the time was soon or near.
As an artist myself I don't analyse a story word for word, by cutting the story apart. I just look at the whole story, the writer and his influences, and the period it was written in.
I guess I analyse stories more on an instinctual level than an analytical one.

You have a good day too.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-14-2008, 09:20 PM
 
Location: on a green & blue ball called earth
265 posts, read 613,656 times
Reputation: 148
hey HE is the ancient of days. He is from everlasting to everlasting. He is alpha and omega the beginning and the end. the book of revelations says He was, and is and is to come so that covers time in my book to, which means he did not lie nor is He late.

you ever heard people say, "He may not be there when you want him, but he's always on time."

what in the world could they be saying? here the point of that statement.
whenever we want to be somewhere we are either early or late. in order to be any place on time we still must leave early, but with God since he is perfect he can neither be too early, or too late, but he can only BE ON TIME.

ALSO
whenever he returns it will be too soon for all of us. sinners will wish for more time to change, and saints will wish for more time to do more. either way, any time HE returns will be SOON as he said, but we'll be thinking too soon when he comes.

hmmm, He's Father time aint he? so whenever he comes it will be the right and perfect TIME.

tee-hee-hee
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top