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Old 02-07-2014, 09:58 PM
 
758 posts, read 838,335 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Shirō Ishii is an interesting, if sickening read:



One account has Ishii tying several hundred Chinese men, women and children POW's to stakes in a field and then blowing bombs off near them to give them minor to serious wounds so the wounds could turn gangrenous, whereupon he would study the effects of the gangrene on their living bodies as they slowly poisoned to death. Nice decent guy.

Ishii converted to Christianity on his deathbed before dying of throat cancer at the age of 67. He got a get-into-heaven-free pass courtesy of Paul's salvation by grace through faith alone heresy.
I guess that must mean Paul's letters were not inspired by the Holy Spirit!

WoWoW!
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Old 02-07-2014, 10:37 PM
 
Location: Tennessee
10,688 posts, read 7,656,145 times
Reputation: 4674
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atkutuq View Post
I don't buy that explanation one bit; I have seen and read the exact opposite of those statements. No man can duplicate the 75 instances of sevens in those verses. The odds are beyond comprehension.
It's not even news that Mark 16:9-20 are an addition--it's nearly 100 years old at the very least--and you're saying you haven't heard of it? There are more than a Sunday School version of scripture out there if you care to explore them. But here are a FEW scholarly sources supporting scribal addition of v 9-20:

Quote:
The Westminster Study Edition of the Holy Bible (Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1948).
vv. 9-20. This section is a later addition; the original ending of Mark appears to have been lost. The best and oldest manuscripts of Mark end with ch. 16:8. Two endings were added very early. The shorter reads: "But they reported briefly to those with Peter all that had been commanded them.
Quote:
A Commentary on the Holy Bible, edited by J.R. Dummelow (New York: MacMillan, 1927), pages 732-33.
9-20. Conclusion of the Gospel. One uncial manuscript gives a second termination to the Gospel as follows: 'And they reported all the things that had been commanded them briefly (or immediately) to the companions of Peter. And after this Jesus himself also sent forth by them from the East even unto the West the holy and incorruptible preaching of eternal salvation.
Internal evidence points definitely to the conclusion that the last twelve verses are not by St. Mark. For, (1) the true conclusion certainly contained a Galilean appearance (Mark 16:7, cp. 14:28), and this does not. (2) The style is that of a bare catalogue of facts, and quite unlike St. Mark's usual wealth of graphic detail. (3) The section contains numerous words and expressions never used by St. Mark. (4) Mark 16:9 makes an abrupt fresh start, and is not continuous with the preceding narrative. (5) Mary Magdalene is spoken of (16:9) as if she had not been mentioned before, although she has just been alluded to twice (15:47, 16:1). (6) The section seems to represent not a primary tradition, such as Peter's, but quite a secondary one, and in particular to be dependent upon the conclusion of St. Matthew, and upon Luke 24:23f.
Quote:
Bruce Metzger, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament (Stuttgart, 1971), pages 122-126.
16:9-20 The Ending(s) of Mark. Four endings of the Gospel according to Mark are current in the manuscripts. (1) The last twelve verses of the commonly received text of Mark are absent from the two oldest Greek manuscripts (א and B), from the Old Latin codex Bobiensis (it k), the Sinaitic Syriac manuscript, about one hundred Armenian manuscripts, and the two oldest Georgian manuscripts (written A.D. 897 and A.D. 913). Clement of Alexandria and Origen show no knowledge of the existence of these verses; furthermore Eusebius and Jerome attest that the passage was absent from almost all Greek copies of Mark known to them. The original form of the Eusebian sections (drawn up by Ammonius) makes no provision for numbering sections of the text after 16:8. Not a few manuscripts which contain the passage have scribal notes stating that older Greek copies lack it, and in other witnesses the passage is marked with asterisks or obeli, the conventional signs used by copyists to indicate a spurious addition to a document.
Now, can a man do something REMARKABLE like write entire books in iambic pentameter (ten syllables in every line)? Well a guy named Shakespeare wrote not just one book, but an entire collection of books in just that style.

There are plenty of attempts within the Bible to make "sevens" or even DOUBLE sevens. How about the fourteen generations between events that are listed in Matthew as in
Quote:
Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Messiah.
Except several errors were made in the genealogies, some of which can be checked in the OT. One of the sets has only THIRTEEN names, despite saying there are fourteen in each group. The total of 41 generations (which should be 3 x 14 = 42) is achieved only by omitting several names, so the choice of three sets of fourteen seems deliberate. Various explanations have been suggested: fourteen is twice seven, symbolizing perfection and covenant, and is also the gematria (numerical value of the name of David.

So don't sell MAN short by thinking he is unable to create 75 instances of seven in 12 sentences. Shakespeare's work is far more impressive. Besides, MAN was made by God, who gave us a brain, expecting we would use it rather than sit on it, I suppose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atkutuq View Post
Ya CAN'T HAVE ONE WITHOUT THE OTHER!
Amen to this last statement. Are any real men of God within the Bible seen without works? They may slip and fall, but all of them returned to WORKS, because they had faith.
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Old 02-07-2014, 10:48 PM
 
18,193 posts, read 16,778,496 times
Reputation: 7423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atkutuq View Post
I guess that must mean Paul's letters were not inspired by the Holy Spirit!

WoWoW!
Quite the opposite, I'd say much of Paul's theology was inspired by his neuroses, his latent homosexuality, his misogyny, and a whole host of other psycho-sexual problems. He might have honestly not realized the cataclysmic damage he did to Christianity through his damnable heresies.

Quote:
"Paul was the great Coryphaeus, and first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus."

Thomas Jefferson
Quote:
"Where possible Paul avoids quoting the teaching of Jesus, in fact even mentioning it. Even where His words are specially relevant, Paul passes over them."
(Albert Schweitzer, The Mysticism of Paul the Apostle,
Quote:
"Paul, not Jesus, was the founder of Christianity as a new religion which developed away from both normal Judaism and the Nazarene variety of Judaism."
(Hyam Maccoby, Paul: The Mythmaker
Quote:
"Paul did not desire to know Christ. Paul shows us with what complete indifference the earthly life of Jesus was regarded.... What is the significance for our faith and for our religious life, the fact that the Gospel of Paul is different from the Gospel of Jesus?
The attitude which Paul himself takes up towards the Gospel of Jesus is that he does not repeat it in the words of Jesus, and does not appeal to its authority.... The fateful thing is that the Greek, the Catholic, and the Protestant theologies all contain the Gospel of Paul in a form which does not continue the Gospel of Jesus, but displaces it."
(The Quest for the Historical Jesus, Albert Schweitzer,)
I could go on but let me say that you have a real motley character as your hero. Several great men well versed in Christianity have no use for Paul and realize that he completely turned Jesus' teachings on their head with his own brand of warped theology.
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Old 02-07-2014, 10:50 PM
 
Location: Tennessee
10,688 posts, read 7,656,145 times
Reputation: 4674
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atkutuq View Post
I guess that must mean Paul's letters were not inspired by the Holy Spirit!

WoWoW!
Unfortunately, some of Paul's writing was inspired by Paul. The difficulty we have is in trying to pick the gems out of the self serving narcissism that pervades his writing. Where it is absent, it's frequently because Paul, himself, is not the author, but rather one of his followers penned as he thought Paul would write.

Although Paul was the champion of "faith alone," it is very interesting that his own lifestyle (according to him) still reflected a life changed by Christ. The problem today is people want to "believe" Paul's writing while rejecting his example of walking as best he could in the steps of Jesus.

P.S. Paul is certainly the writer of seven of the fourteen letters attributed to him. The other seven have been the subject of much debate--some for hundreds of years.

As another P.S., after seeing what Thrill posted above me---there is nothing to indicate Paul was homosexual in his writing or the book of Acts. Assuming someone is homosexual because they apparently abstain from physical relations with women is simply a bigoted presumption. But Thrill's quotes of other writers is spot on, and why Paul must be read with a huge tablespoon of salt.
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Old 02-07-2014, 10:56 PM
 
18,193 posts, read 16,778,496 times
Reputation: 7423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
It's not even news that Mark 16:9-20 are an addition--it's nearly 100 years old at the very least--and you're saying you haven't heard of it? There are more than a Sunday School version of scripture out there if you care to explore them. But here are a FEW scholarly sources supporting scribal addition of v 9-20:







Now, can a man do something REMARKABLE like write entire books in iambic pentameter (ten syllables in every line)? Well a guy named Shakespeare wrote not just one book, but an entire collection of books in just that style.

There are plenty of attempts within the Bible to make "sevens" or even DOUBLE sevens. How about the fourteen generations between events that are listed in Matthew as in


Except several errors were made in the genealogies, some of which can be checked in the OT. One of the sets has only THIRTEEN names, despite saying there are fourteen in each group. The total of 41 generations (which should be 3 x 14 = 42) is achieved only by omitting several names, so the choice of three sets of fourteen seems deliberate. Various explanations have been suggested: fourteen is twice seven, symbolizing perfection and covenant, and is also the gematria (numerical value of the name of David.

So don't sell MAN short by thinking he is unable to create 75 instances of seven in 12 sentences. Shakespeare's work is far more impressive. Besides, MAN was made by God, who gave us a brain, expecting we would use it rather than sit on it, I suppose.



Amen to this last statement. Are any real men of God within the Bible seen without works? They may slip and fall, but all of them returned to WORKS, because they had faith.
When I was a kid I was quite taken with the Bible Codes. I thought this stuff had to be inspired by the Holy Spirit. Now of course I know better. We get wiser as we get older and are not taken in by such things appearing to be supernatural working of the Holy Spirit when, in fact, the HS had absolutely nothing to do with it.
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Old 02-07-2014, 11:08 PM
 
18,193 posts, read 16,778,496 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Unfortunately, some of Paul's writing was inspired by Paul. The difficulty we have is in trying to pick the gems out of the self serving narcissism that pervades his writing. Where it is absent, it's frequently because Paul, himself, is not the author, but rather one of his followers penned as he thought Paul would write.

Although Paul was the champion of "faith alone," it is very interesting that his own lifestyle (according to him) still reflected a life changed by Christ. The problem today is people want to "believe" Paul's writing while rejecting his example of walking as best he could in the steps of Jesus.

P.S. Paul is certainly the writer of seven of the fourteen letters attributed to him. The other seven have been the subject of much debate--some for hundreds of years.

As another P.S., after seeing what Thrill posted above me---there is nothing to indicate Paul was homosexual in his writing or the book of Acts. Assuming someone is homosexual because they apparently abstain from physical relations with women is simply a bigoted presumption. But Thrill's quotes of other writers is spot on, and why Paul must be read with a huge tablespoon of salt.
I apologize. My "pen" got away from me in my haste to write. I meant to say Paul was a latent "homophobe". I will add, however, that many politicians and ministers who came out strongly against homosexuality were later exposed as gay. Ted Haggard, former mega-pastor and Larry Craig, former Idaho Republican US Senator immediately spring to mind. It's a common ploy used by gay men to deflect possible attention away from their proclivity. I mean, who would EVER suspect an anti-gay public figure of being gay!!!
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Old 02-08-2014, 11:03 AM
 
Location: US
32,530 posts, read 21,861,394 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You have just been told that Jesus is called God in Philippians 2 which was written before the gospel accounts, and so the teaching of Jesus' deity was not a gradual development.

What Philippians has to do with it is that it establishes that Jesus was recognized as God by the writers of the New Testament before any of the gospel accounts were written.

Trust me, you have no idea what's going on.

I'll not bother with any further replies to you, as it would be pointless.
Well, if Paul's letters are questionable, then Phillipians is questionable...
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Old 02-08-2014, 02:27 PM
 
18,193 posts, read 16,778,496 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Well, if Paul's letters are questionable, then Phillipians is questionable...
And Paul himself is questionable.

Here's a little tidbit I stumbled upon. Really, all you have to do if you want the dirt on Paul is to goggle "Was Paul a false apostle?" It is there in abundance.

Paul claimed to be the apostle to the Ephesians

Quote:
"Paul, an apostle of Yahshua by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus," Ephesians 1:1
Yet here is what Jesus says to the Church in Ephesus in Revelation:

Quote:
"I know your works, your labor, and your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars." Rev. 2:2
It'd be easy to say, "Nah, Jesus isn't referring to Paul."

Well, first of all no apostle other than Paul that we have on record came forward and claimed to be the apostle to Ephesus. But here's the clincher:

Quote:
"And he [Paul] went into the synagogue and spoke boldly for three months, reasoning and persuading concerning the things of the kingdom of God. But when some were hardened and did not believe, but spoke evil of the way before the multitude..." Acts 19:8,9
Paul eventually comes to say

Quote:
"This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me." 2Timothy 1:15
Basically here's what we end up with:

Paul to the Ephesians: "I am an apostle of Yahshua"
The Ephesians to Paul: "No you're not."
Yahshua to the Ephesians: "Well done!"

I've outlined some of the other reasons for calling Paul's conversion testimony into serious question, not the least of which is his FOUR differing accounts of his conversion. The most incompetent judge, upon hearing one person with no witnesses give four different stories on a witness stand would not only throw out the testimony but arrest the person for perjuring himself. This is but an anthill in a mountain of evidence against Paul being a true witness for Christ.
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Old 02-08-2014, 04:44 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
27,914 posts, read 29,727,261 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Is salvation by faith alone through grace a heresy? It would seem so.
And that's because it is so.
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Old 02-08-2014, 06:45 PM
 
63,461 posts, read 39,726,177 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Is salvation by faith alone through grace a heresy? It would seem so.
And that's because it is so.
I don't believe in the concept of heresy because I don't think specific religious beliefs are of any concern to God. Belief in His Son and His instructions to "love God and each other" IS. But you are both correct . . . the "do nothing easy believism" view of our purpose is wrong. We do have something to achieve . . . though it is not our salvation. Christ took care of that.
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