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No one can get in a bunch over copyright, I wrote this paper myself. LOL
Modern day Jehovah’s Witnesses can trace their beginning to the Millerist movement of 1833. William Miller a veteran of the United States Civil war, was convinced that he had found the time or date for the second coming of Christ in bible text. He had through a complex interpretation of dates concluded that the end was due in October 22,1845. When the sun rose on October 23 as usual there came what is known as the “Great Disappointment.” His following had grown to a national movement and many followers sold farms and did not plant crops in anticipation of the return of Christ.
Early years
Charles Taz Russell the founder of the modern day Jehovah’s Witnesses was a follower of the Millerist movement. Russell met and joined with Nelson H. Barbour, who had a magazine “Harold the Morning.” Russell split with Barbour after the second coming did not occur in 1878 as they both has predicted, and created what is now Jehovah’s Witnesses and Barbour created the 7th day Adventist. Russell believed that he has found the date for the end times of the bible talks about in Revelation. In 1881 Russell created “Zion’s Watchtower Tract Society” which was a pamphlet and tract printing organization. Russell took the name Jehovah from the mistranslation of the Tetragrammaton. The Tetragrammaton was the Hebrew written name of God. The translation for God’s name is YHWH, with vowels inserted is YAHWAh and finally the medieval mistranslation of Jehovah. The last part of the name refers to God’s people who witness the end of days or Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Beliefs
Russell had borrowed some of the teaching of the Millerist movement, some from his joint partnership with Barbour, and some he added new to the creation of the Jehovah’s Witness movement. Russell’s new sect did not believe in a Hell as a place of eternal torment. He taught that only 144,000 righteous people or the bible term of “The Great Multitude” would go to heaven. This is still believed today. The balance of righteous humanity or Jehovah’s Witnesses who remain faithful unto the end, and those asleep in death that would be resurrected, will live forever in a paradise Earth. Russell changed the date of the end times he and Barbour calculated from 1874 to 1914 through a complicated amalgamation of scripture and interpretation. Russell believed and taught that in 1914 Jesus under gods direction will return to earth and destroy all those who did not follow god’s true religion (Jehovah’s Witnesses.) When this did not occur he changed his dogma to 1914 was the year that Satan was thrown from heaven and sent to Earth by Jesus and simultaneously Jesus took power for 1000 years or the Millennial reign and Jesus would now bring Armageddon in 1916. Russell died before this date came. Russell used what is known as Pyramidology. This was the belief that God or Jehovah built the Pyramids of Giza, and by measuring the interior passage ways and using these numbers along with bible text could calculate the end date or time for Armageddon. Pastor Russell died in October 31, 1916 and was buried under an 8 foot tall Pyramid memorial referencing to the belief in the Pyramidology teaching. The next predecessor to Russell was one Judge Rutherford. January after a hostile legal take over of the organization by the Judge as he like to be called. He was not a Judge but gave himself the title, his real name was Joseph Franklin Rutherford. Rutherford set out to change the dates for the end times since they had passed along with Russell. Rutherford dropped the references to the Pyramids. Rutherford moved the dates and in a assembly meeting in Cincinnati, titled “Millions Now Living Will Never Die.” This talk was given in 1920 and Rutherford said that the end would come in 1925. Rutherford built a 5000 square foot mansion in San Diego California, called Beth-Sarim and had it titled in the name of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and David of the Biblical text. He did this because he taught that God would resurrect these men of faith before the end and they would lead God’s people or Jehovah’s Witnesses through Armageddon. The next person in line was Nathan H. Knorr who ran the organization from Rutherford’s death to 1977. Knorr was more of an organizer than a prophet and gave the religion most of its structure we see today. Then after Knorr Fred Franz took control and was instrumental in creating the Watchtowers’ own translation of biblical text to English. Franz was the modern prophet of the organization giving it many of the prophecy’s and ideas it now holds true. The biggest failed prophecy was that of the end times arriving in 1975. Franz said that to his calculations the end of mans 6000 years of existence would end in 1975 and would usher in Gods judgment on sinful mankind. When this came and went they quietly dropped date setting and now use the term “last days” instead of dates. Most of the teachings of Pastor Russell have been changed or dropped altogether and Witnesses say this is in keeping with the scripture of the light getting brighter as the day of Jehovah nears.
Charles T. Russell did not come up with the name Jehovah's Witnesses, that came from Joseph F. Rutherford. He was a lawyer before he became the Watchtower Society's third president, not the second as so many have stated. I suggest reading the information found by Barbara Anderson who worked at the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society's headquarters in New York, USA on her website [url=http://watchtowerdocuments.com/]Barbara Anderson - Watchtower Documents LLC - Anything Jehovah's Witnesses Related and More[/url]
Bible Student movement aka JW's 1874 ... Charles Taze Russell " founder of the JW's ....The first prediction of the end of the world 1878 ... The second prediction of the end of the world from the Bible Student movement. 1881 ... The third prediction of the end of the world from the Bible Student movement. 1908 ... The fourth prediction of the end of the world from the Bible Student movement. 1914 ... "the battle of the great day of God Almighty… The date of the close of that "battle" is definitely marked in Scripture as October 1914. It is already in progress, its beginning dating from October, 1874." 1916 ... World War I would terminate in Armageddon and the rapture of the "saints". 1918 ... Another prediction of the end from the Bible Student movement. 1920 ... Christendom would go down as a system to oblivion and be succeeded by revolutionary governments. God would "destroy the churches wholesale and the church members by the millions......"
1925 ... Joseph F. Rutherford, ...we may expect 1925 to witness the return of these faithful men of Israel from the condition of death, being resurrected and fully restored to perfect humanity and made the visible, legal representatives of the new order of things on earth"
**1975 ... In 1966 Jehovah's Witnesses estimated it would be 6000 years since man's creation in the fall of 1975 and it would be "appropriate" for Christ's thousand-year reign to begin at that time. These claims were repeated throughout the late 1960s and in 1974 they reaffirmed there was just a short time remaining before "the wicked world's end".
**Oct 2, 1984 ... Another prediction of the end from the Jehovah's Witnesses.
Bible Student movement aka JW's 1874 ... Charles Taze Russell " founder of the JW's ....The first prediction of the end of the world 1878 ... The second prediction of the end of the world from the Bible Student movement. 1881 ... The third prediction of the end of the world from the Bible Student movement. 1908 ... The fourth prediction of the end of the world from the Bible Student movement.
Sorry not predictions and definitely not prophecy as stated many times by JW's and in writing. Twisted accounts abound, as my JW friends have demonstrated many times.
Note:
January 1883 Watchtower: "We have not the gift of prophecy."
1908: “We are not prophesying; we are merely giving our surmises, the scriptural basis for which is already in the hands of our readers in the six volumes of Scripture Studies. We do not even aver that there is no mistake in our interpretation of prophecy and our calculations of chronology. We have merely laid these before you, leaving it for each to exercise his own faith or doubt in respect to them; but showing our own faith by our works.” January 1, 1908 WT pg. 4110 (Emphasis added)
1896:
Nor would we have our writings reverenced or regarded as infallible, or on a par with the holy Scriptures. The most we claim or have ever claimed for our teachings is that they are what we believe to be harmonious interpretations of the divine Word, in harmony with the spirit of the truth. And we still urge, as in the past, that each reader study the subjects we present in the light of the Scriptures, proving all things by the Scriptures, accepting what they see to be thus approved, and rejecting all else. It is to this end, to enable the student to trace the subject in the divinely inspired Record, that we so freely intersperse both quotations and citations of the Scriptures upon which to build. - Zion's Watch Tower and Herald of Christ's Presence, 15 December 1896
1912:
But we remind our readers again, that we have not prophesiedanything about the Times of the gentiles closing in a time of trouble nor about the glorious epoch which will shortly follow that catastrophe. We have merely pointed out what the Scriptures say, giving our views respecting their meaning and asking our readers to judge, each for himself what they signify.” Dec 1, 1912 WT pg. 5142
1950:
August 15, 1950 Watchtower "The Watchtower does not claim to be inspired in its utterances, nor is it dogmatic."
1968:
At a convention held in Baltimore, Maryland, in I am told 1968 F. W. Franz gave the concluding talk. He began by saying:
“Just before I got on the platform a young man came to me and said, ‘Say, what does this 1975 mean?’” Brother Franz then referred to the many questions that had arisen as to whether the material in the new book meant that by 1975 Armageddon would be finished, and Satan would be bound. He stated, in essence: ‘It could. But we are not saying. All things are possible with God. But we are not saying. And don’t any of you be specific in saying anything that is going to happen between now and 1975. But the big point of it all is this, dear friends: Time is short. Time is running out, no question about that.’
These are just a few of the points made showing those claiming predictions/prophecy are lying.
Oh how about.
Martin Luther:
Cross Dictionary of the Church 3rd Edition.
We will now examine some of Luther=s expectations and the predictions he made. ... Other considerations, however, motivated the urgency of Luther=s tract on the Turks. At no other time in his life was he so certain of the imminence of the end, and in the months from late 1529 to the early part of 1530he worked feverishly to understand and incorporate the event of the Turk into the total scheme of history. <e p. 245 The Germans are exhorted to repentance before the final wrath of God, and Christ is expected to appear and destroy God and Magog (Wbr 5:166-67, 170).. <e p. 245
From a man who knew Billy Graham:
Billy Graham, which he told me has "probably done more to bring others to the Lord than anyone," once told a rally in Los Angeles in 1950: “I sincerely believe that the Lord draweth nigh. We may have another year, maybe two years, to work for Jesus Christ, and, Ladies and Gentlemen, I believe it is all going to be over ... two years and it’s all going to be over.”
The Roman Catholic Church also has a history of failed predictions. For example, Gregory I who was pope from 590-604 AD predicted the end of the world was near in a letter that he wrote to Ethelbert, a European monarch.
Calvary Chapel (“nondenominational”)
The founder of the Calvary Chapel system is the charismatic Pastor Chuck Smith. Some years ago, he published a book entitled: End Times. On the jacket of his book, Smith is called a “well known Bible scholar and prophecy teacher.” In this book he wrote: “As we look at the world scene today, it would
appear that the coming of the Lord is very, very, close. Yet, we do not know when it will be. It could be that the Lord will wait for a time longer. If I understand Scripture correctly, Jesus taught us that the generation which sees the ‘budding of the fig tree’, the birth of the nation Israel, will be the generation that sees the Lord’s return; I believe that the generation of 1948 is the last generation. Since a generation of judgment is forty years and the tribulation lasts seven years, I believe the Lord could come back for his church anytime before the tribulation starts, which would mean anytime BEFORE 1981. (1948 + 40 -7
Virtually every Church has one or more Leaders who have spoken in this way. GREAT.
I would never want to attend a Church that did not do so. Why, because Jesus said to keep the end close in mind, not in the far distant future. A protection for believers. Any church that has not or does not do so, is one to run from. They aren't listening to Jesus.
The most accurate statement about this is every religion or even ones who serve multitudes of Gods have made false statements and predictions. However, ANY religion no matter their intent who make predictions that do not come true the bible is very clear about such ones at Deut 18:22 "When a prophet makes a statement in the name of the Lord, if what he says does not take place and his words do not come true, then his word is not the word of the Lord: the words of the prophet were said in the pride of his heart, and you are to have no fear of him" (your translation might be different but the point is clear).
I find it very disheartening religious denominations have made such errors and predictions and have defended their errors and spin the words to make it seem it was actually the believers who got it wrong or misunderstood. To after the fact say they were just "statements" is not showing ANY humility but passing the blame to others. We get frustrated if a weatherman gives weather "chances" that are wrong and some upset if predictions are far off the mark. How would we feel if a weatherman then told the viewers after giving them absolutely incorrect information it was THEIR faults in basing their day, plans or attire accuse the watchers of inaccuracies and he was just making "statements"? He would not only lose our trust, respect and confidence but more than likely be removed from his job. That's just something as simple as weather, how much more important is someone who says they speak in the name of God? The bible clearly outlines about our service being humble as pointed out in Roms 12:3 but instead all denominations rush ahead of God.
Listen... I am not a pastor, I am not someone who could win a spiritual debate. I am not perfect by ANY means. While others notice I am different than others in manners and actions I actually tell people while I try to live my life as a Christian to PLEASE don't look at me as the perfect example since I make mistakes daily and then have to pray over things many think is "acceptable" or just who we are. But for someone who is clearly not "studied" in scriptures as some others are sometimes I think it's people like me who have more of a grip than ones who feel they are "saved" or who look down upon people like me and believe they are the ONLY ones being saved showing the lack of love that Jesus taught. Does that mean there is no use for spiritual guidance outside of our own knowledge and just come to know God solo? Of course not unless we live in an area we have no access to others either in person, online or the phone. The bible actually talks about the benefits of studying and discussing the bible with others as well as the benefits of becoming friends with others who share our faith since they can encourage us but when we start acting exclusive we judge harshly the way God said he will judge us.
JW's are NOT the only religious group that has critics there are MANY more if not all who also get the treatment so it's not exclusive. Actually I think the main reasons people come down hard on JW's are mostly because of the claim that it's the ONLY people who will be saved (outside of either ones who died or never knew about God) or live acceptable to God and all other Christians are just wasting away in error. The second are dogging out certain teachings only to years later come around and agree with those same teachings. The more I read the bible the more I just cannot accept that. Yes I believe there are MANY sincere JW's who are excellent people and workers but... there are MILLIONS more not JW's who also are excellent God fearing people who sacrifice their lives to teach, ones who dedicate their lives to help the poor, give of their time, resources and experience hardship I can't even imagine to help others who aren't even Christians. The bible even says God uses ones who might not even be a current servant to do his will as well. Do you think God looks at their sacrifice as worthless because they are not a denomination formed by man? Then when you say you're the ONLY TRUE religion then make false predictions or "statements" people are going to doubt it. Don't you agree? When you also reference and agree with bible points from other Christian denomination publications in magazines then at the same time at meetings call out these same denominations as "false" people will doubt, you agree? By admitting it's NOT an organization that God is inspiring directly but STILL say it's the ONLY true faith or will be saved you overlook a simple loving scripture Acts 10:34,35 "Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right" (your translation might be slightly different but the tone is the same).
I really hope your comments expatCA are sincere as the words I typed are from my heart and not meant to come across as coming down on you or your faith but trust me I know more about JW's than the average layman who is outside religion who wants to just blast a religious org for no other reason that to be mean. I just now understand God is not so unjust the way us humans think is just. While yes I do talk more with ones who share my overall beliefs there are times there are specific points/ teachings we disagree. Do we call each other false and leave as enemies even making family members who don't share my personal beliefs feel as evil? No! We let the bible talk and even then if still disagreement we agree to disagree because, as I told a more experienced bible student who agreed, the bible is VERY CLEAR about the things we're to know now and how to please God. The other stuff that is not understood or can be taking different ways are things not as vital and at due time will be revealed.
Last edited by MichaelDante; 02-13-2014 at 02:03 PM..
The most accurate statement about this is every religion or even ones who serve multitudes of Gods have made false statements and predictions. However, ANY religion no matter their intent who make predictions that do not come true the bible is very clear about such ones at Deut 18:22 "When a prophet makes a statement in the name of the Lord, if what he says does not take place and his words do not come true, then his word is not the word of the Lord: the words of the prophet were said in the pride of his heart, and you are to have no fear of him" (your translation might be different but the point is clear).
I find it very disheartening religious denominations have made such errors and predictions and have defended their errors and spin the words to make it seem it was actually the believers who got it wrong or misunderstood. To after the fact say they were just "statements" is not showing ANY humility but passing the blame to others. We get frustrated if a weatherman gives weather "chances" that are wrong and some upset if predictions are far off the mark. How would we feel if a weatherman then told the viewers after giving them absolutely incorrect information it was THEIR faults in basing their day, plans or attire accuse the watchers of inaccuracies and he was just making "statements"? He would not only lose our trust, respect and confidence but more than likely be removed from his job. That's just something as simple as weather, how much more important is someone who says they speak in the name of God? The bible clearly outlines about our service being humble as pointed out in Roms 12:3 but instead all denominations rush ahead of God.
Listen... I am not a pastor, I am not someone who could win a spiritual debate. I am not perfect by ANY means. While others notice I am different than others in manners and actions I actually tell people while I try to live my life as a Christian to PLEASE don't look at me as the perfect example since I make mistakes daily and then have to pray over things many think is "acceptable" or just who we are. But for someone who is clearly not "studied" in scriptures as some others are sometimes I think it's people like me who have more of a grip than ones who feel they are "saved" or who look down upon people like me and believe they are the ONLY ones being saved showing the lack of love that Jesus taught. Does that mean there is no use for spiritual guidance outside of our own knowledge and just come to know God solo? Of course not unless we live in an area we have no access to others either in person, online or the phone. The bible actually talks about the benefits of studying and discussing the bible with others as well as the benefits of becoming friends with others who share our faith since they can encourage us but when we start acting exclusive we judge harshly the way God said he will judge us.
JW's are NOT the only religious group that has critics there are MANY more if not all who also get the treatment so it's not exclusive. Actually I think the main reasons people come down hard on JW's are mostly because of the claim that it's the ONLY people who will be saved (outside of either ones who died or never knew about God) or live acceptable to God and all other Christians are just wasting away in error. The second are dogging out certain teachings only to years later come around and agree with those same teachings. The more I read the bible the more I just cannot accept that. Yes I believe there are MANY sincere JW's who are excellent people and workers but... there are MILLIONS more not JW's who also are excellent God fearing people who sacrifice their lives to teach, ones who dedicate their lives to help the poor, give of their time, resources and experience hardship I can't even imagine to help others who aren't even Christians. The bible even says God uses ones who might not even be a current servant to do his will as well. Do you think God looks at their sacrifice as worthless because they are not a denomination formed by man? Then when you say you're the ONLY TRUE religion then make false predictions or "statements" people are going to doubt it. Don't you agree? When you also reference and agree with bible points from other Christian denomination publications in magazines then at the same time at meetings call out these same denominations as "false" people will doubt, you agree? By admitting it's NOT an organization that God is inspiring directly but STILL say it's the ONLY true faith or will be saved you overlook a simple loving scripture Acts 10:34,35 "Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right" (your translation might be slightly different but the tone is the same).
I really hope your comments expatCA are sincere as the words I typed are from my heart and not meant to come across as coming down on you or your faith but trust me I know more about JW's than the average layman who is outside religion who wants to just blast a religious org for no other reason that to be mean. I just now understand God is not so unjust the way us humans think is just. While yes I do talk more with ones who share my overall beliefs there are times there are specific points/ teachings we disagree. Do we call each other false and leave as enemies even making family members who don't share my personal beliefs feel as evil? No! We let the bible talk and even then if still disagreement we agree to disagree because, as I told a more experienced bible student who agreed, the bible is VERY CLEAR about the things we're to know now and how to please God. The other stuff that is not understood or can be taking different ways are things not as vital and at due time will be revealed.
No problem BUT.
It does not apply to Jehovah's Witnesses anymore than it does to Chuck Smith or Luther.
Note:
Deut 18:22 "When a prophet makes a statement in the name of the Lord, if what he says does not take place and his words do not come true, then his word is not the word of the Lord: the words of the prophet were said in the pride of his heart, and you are to have no fear of him
None of them, including the Jehovah's Witnesses said God said, "an angel told me, I am speaking a revelation from God", etc and at least the Jehovah's Witnesses clearly have always said they are NOT an inspired Prophet, as described in the verse you quoted.
I agree every Church makes "mistakes" in what it teaches as did the 1st century Congregations. We should to some degree avoid the "true/False" argument and examine the actual teachings (current for any Church) and see if they match Scripture. Brining up older teachings is fine IF we look at what they were and why they chanegd. Just like now virtually every Church for centuries taught everyone goes to heaven and stays there forever. Now many are saying, nope just for a while and then they come back and join the bodies and live on earth. Variations of that too.
Now what I think about how God looks at individuals, is that we all must decide and that includes where and we better be. Why?
KJV Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Notice "my people" yet if they stay in that false religious harlot like place, they are judged by God as bad and will not get His blessing. God gives us all we need, we just have to check it out. Many won't for so many reasons.
Is there ONE True Church, YES. Is it perfect, NO, but it exists and is not formed from a multitude of divided denominations. God and His Son are not that poor as shepherds or teachers.
The JW's fell for the same trick that far too many others have: They thought they could predict the Second Coming of Christ and the accompanying tribulations. Who else has tried and failed to predict it?
Two different Roman Catholic Popes.
Dozens of dates have been predicted by other members of the RCC throughout the ages, making the RCC the greatest offender at incorrectly predicting the end of times (with the corrolary that they've been at it a lot longer than anyone else of course)
Several Anabaptists
Sabbatai Zevi, probably the most famous Jewish false Messiah ever.
Christopher Columbus twice
Martin Luther
Isaac Newton
Various Anglicans
Various Puritans
Various Presbyterians
John Wesley (founder of the Methodist Church)
William Miller
Charles Taze Russell
Seventh Day Adventists
Grigori Rasputin
Pat Robertson
Lester Sumrall a Pentacostal minister
Louis Farrakhan
Various members of the Bahá'à sect
Born-Again Christian minister Rollen Stewart
Harrold Camping seems to be determined to set a new record for incorrectly predicting the end of times.
James Linsay, an Evangelical Pentacostal
Jerry Falwell of the Southern Baptist Church
Edgar Cayce
Warren Jeffs
Various Muslims have incorrectly predicted the end of times.
Nostradamus (believers in his prophecies keep re-interpreting his prophecies and coming up with new dates).
A whole bunch of comet and star watchers from all sorts of places and backgrounds
... countless others
The fact that the JW's have incorrectly predicted the end of times five or six times isn't much of a "gotcha" moment since virtually every Christian religion in existence has tried and failed to predict the Second Coming or End of Times, etc. If your specific denomination did not, odds are that the founder or some other leader of the Protestant faith you branched off of did. I'm sure there are exceptions and I even know of a few, but the majority of Christian religions are guilty on this point.
I don't know why the temptation to do this is so strong, but religious history is absolutely loaded with failed predictions. Everyone trying to predict the end of the world, or Rapture, or Second Coming, etc. really need to read this passage:
Quote:
Matthew 24:35 "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."
Keep reading it over and over until you stop feeling that overwhelming need to predict the end of times.
Deut 18:22 "When a prophet makes a statement in the name of the Lord, if what he says does not take place and his words do not come true, then his word is not the word of the Lord: the words of the prophet were said in the pride of his heart, and you are to have no fear of him
None of them, including the Jehovah's Witnesses said God said, "an angel told me, I am speaking a revelation from God", etc and at least the Jehovah's Witnesses clearly have always said they are NOT an inspired Prophet, as described in the verse you quoted.
Quote:
Is there ONE True Church, YES. Is it perfect, NO, but it exists and is not formed from a multitude of divided denominations. God and His Son are not that poor as shepherds or teachers.
Let me just be straightforward and say that I'm genuinely curious. I have studied the Jehovah's Witnesses religion a bit, but not in great depth, but I get confused on a number of points.
1.) Does the Jehovah's Witness religion claim to be receiving prophecy? Every answer I've gotten on this question seems ... halfway. The gist of it seemed to be, "Well sorta." You mention that none of the failed JW predictions on the Second Coming were based upon prophecy or something along those lines ... which leaves the implication that perhaps they are receiving revelation and/or prophecy on other matters.
2.) If they have received prophecies and revelations, can you offer some examples?
3.) I think the dream of every Christian heart is for there to truly be "one faith, one Lord, one baptism" etc. The Jehovah's Witnesses claim to be that one true faith. I've just never been able to sort out how. From what I've seen, it's just another religion interpreting scripture differently, claiming they got it right and everyone else got it wrong. So what makes the JW religion the one true faith?
4.) Some time ago, the JW's knocked on my door and I chatted with them. I was complimentary as I do have a good deal of respect for the JW's. Then I asked, "Do you believe in a closed canon of scriptures? If so, what is the basis of your belief in a closed canon." Quotes from the Bible utterly fail to establish a closed canon as an absolute thanks to chronology. The compilation and canonization of the New Testament was hundreds of years in the future when the books contained in it were written. Every passage that seems to imply, "Okay, there can't be anymore" ends up having some part of the NT written after it. I wasn't trying to be rude. That is just one of those things that always puzzles me: Did God close the canon of scripture or was it mankind that did it. If it was God, then when did God close the canon of scripture? I've never found a satisfactory response to this question ... and I think I scared them off that day. Perhaps you could offer some insights from the JW perspective on the matter?
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