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Old 12-01-2007, 12:16 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
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Not all generalisations are 'generalisations'.
Saying that all Christians believe that they need God to be saved is not a generalisation. All Christians have to believe this, otherwise there is no difference between a Christian and a non-Christian.
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Old 12-01-2007, 10:52 PM
 
Location: Indiana
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Not all generalisations are 'generalisations'.
Saying that all Christians believe that they need God to be saved is not a generalisation. All Christians have to believe this, otherwise there is no difference between a Christian and a non-Christian.
There is nothing wrong with believing that we need God to be saved. The problem comes in when people want to beat the non-believers over the head with their Bibles to get them to realize that they need Jesus. As if that would accomplish anything. So, in this case, you can generalize by saying, all Christians go around shoving Christ in your face all of the time. When in reality, some do and some don't. We just choose to live our lives reflecting Christ within us.
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Old 12-02-2007, 12:31 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
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Quote:
There is nothing wrong with believing that we need God to be saved. The problem comes in when people want to beat the non-believers over the head with their Bibles to get them to realize that they need Jesus.
The problem is that you automatically assume that only God can be perfect, so man must be flawed otherwise he would be god. Since man is flawed the world, or even the entire universe, must also be flawed.
Whether Christians realise it or not the Judeo-Christian philosophy puts any individual, who believes that they need God to not be flawed, on a pedestal.

There are many cultures that do not consider themselves flawed or sinful and were perfectly happy minding their own business until the Christians arrived.
Too bad Christianity had never watched Star Trek where Star Fleet has their Prime Directive.
Quote:
Also known as Starfleet General Order 1, the Prime Directive is the most important law in Starfleet. Violation of the Directive is generally considered a felony offence that often carries severe punishment unless sufficient justification can be made for the violation.

The Directive states that members of Starfleet are not to interfere in the internal affairs of another species, especially the natural development of pre-warp civilizations, either by direct intervention, or technological revelation. When studying a planet's civilization, particularly during a planetary survey, the Prime Directive makes it clear that there is to be "No identification of self or mission. No interference with the social development of said planet. No references to space, other worlds, or advanced civilizations." (TOS: "Bread and Circuses"). Starfleet personnel are required to understand that allowing cultures to develop on their own is an important right and therefore must make any sacrifice to protect cultures from contamination, even at the cost of their own lives.

The Prime Directive is not enforced upon citizens of the Federation. Under the rules as defined in the Directive, a Starfleet crew is forbidden from removing citizens who have interfered with the culture of a world. Violating the directive can result in a court-martial for the offending Starfleet officer or crew. (TNG: "Angel One")
Prime Directive - Memory Alpha, the Star Trek Wiki
What I’m trying to say is that the ‘primitive’ cultures were automatically deemed inferior by the Christians because they did not have God in their life. And Europeans also considered themselves superior because their weapons & technology appeared to be superior.
Unfortunately the European philosophy was often inferior, simply because they believed themselves to be superior. Believing yourself to be superior to others only indicates that one is suffering from a superiority complex.
Having a superiority complex does not make oneself superior.
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Old 12-02-2007, 01:50 AM
 
Location: NC
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Quote:
The problem is that you automatically assume that only God can be perfect, so man must be flawed otherwise he would be god. Since man is flawed the world, or even the entire universe, must also be flawed.
Whether Christians realise it or not the Judeo-Christian philosophy puts any individual, who believes that they need God to not be flawed, on a pedestal
.

But Tricky D., why is this a problem? If this is what we believe the scriptures teach then we profess it and it is a part of our belief system. We have the right to express our beliefs just as anyone else does. I don't care if people make the statement or generalize that all Christians believe that all people need to be saved. God sent Jesus to be our Savior. Therefore the world is flawed and mankind is flawed, according to Christian teaching. It is what is taught in the Christian scriptures. It does not put anyone on a pedestal in my mind. It may be the case for some Christians but I don't believe that the majority view it in this way. We are saved by the work of God and no one of us should have superiority complex. We were all sinners according to the Christian teaching and it is because of God's grace that we are saved. If you believe that our believing that all are in need of a Savior put us on a pedestal with feelings of superiority over others, then this is what you believe. We don't necessarily believe it. Thanks and God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 12-02-2007 at 02:29 AM..
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Old 12-02-2007, 02:06 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
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Quote:
We were all sinners according to the Christian teaching and it is because of God's grace that we are saved. God bless.
This here is exactly what the problem is. Christians see no fault in their reasoning or beliefs.
There were many cultures who did not want foreigners to enter their land. If it was entirely up to them no foreigner would ever enter their lands. Unfortunately the westerners were very good in persuading others to trade with them. So Japan decided to only deal with Portugal and Holland and they did so on a remote island so they could confine 'the western barbarians'.
Unfortunately America had to come down on Japan with their guns blazing. They practically raped Japan by forcing her to open her gates to the Americans.
America treated the Japanese in the exact same way they treated their own Native Americans; with brute force which so happily coincided with their belief that might makes right.
America demanded to be able to trade with Japan, simply because that was what they wanted.
America never gave a damn about whatever the Japanese wanted, unless of course they are forced to themselves.
Just like any other school yard bully.
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Old 12-02-2007, 02:17 AM
 
Location: NC
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Quote:
This here is exactly what the problem is. Christians see no fault in their reasoning or beliefs
Tricky D., we can't change what happened in the past, but because we may disagree on the way in which some treated others and may still be treating others , doesn't mean that a belief is wrong. I don't believe that the Europeans should have forced Christianity on the Native Americans either or treated them in the manner in which they were treated, for example, but this doesn't mean that Christians believing that mankind is flawed and in need of a Savior is wrong. This is what the Christian scriptures teach. But some people went around expressing it the wrong way and all Europeans were not necessarily Christians. All Americans are not necessarily Christians. African Americans have been treated wrongly by people who professed to be Christians in the US and by those who didn't profess to be Christians, but this doesn't mean that the Christian belief that man is in need of a Savior is wrong. Someone may not agree with it or like it. Thanks and God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 12-02-2007 at 02:40 AM.. Reason: typo, clarifications
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Old 12-02-2007, 03:21 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
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Quote:
Tricky D., we can't change what happened in the past, but because we may disagree on the way in which some treated others and may still be treating others , doesn't mean that a belief is wrong.
Shana I'm not saying that all of Christianity is wrong, just the part were Christians believe that Christianity can do no wrong. I mean what is the difference between Iraq and Japan, or Vietnam and Korea? Like a spoiled child modern America keeps taking what it wants (like the old Europian colonists did) and keeps justifying their reasons with their faith that they are only doing the right thing.
America acts as a bully because it perceives itself as the only superpower and the rest of the world kowtows to this vision. Whether one views itself as a superpower through faith in Christ or faith in superior firepower is irrelevant to me. The same way that I do not care why a rapist rapes, I only want him to stop raping other people.

Christianity is western culture and western culture is Christianity from the moment the Roman Empire usurped the Christian religion and made it it's state religion. Do you think the many different Europeans tribes became Christians because Christians are so benevolent? The Roman Empire conquered and assimilated all the European non-Christian religions into Catholicism, their state religion. The native robber barons and other heathen kings either converted to Christianity or they were exiled or worse executed for being heathens. There truly is no difference between religion and politics, simply because they compete for the same prize: power (and money).
Unlike you I just do not confuse the Christian ideal with reality.
I did not write the past.
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Old 12-02-2007, 05:33 AM
 
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..." but this doesn't mean that Christians believing that mankind is flawed and in need of a Savior is wrong. This is what the Christian scriptures teach....."

This is a good example of what I mean. Not ALL Christians believe that mankind is flawed. Nor do All Christians think the same way regarding salvation. SOME Christians see the scripture only as a guide. The Bible may be very important to Some, but not to All. The scriptures are seen as flawed stories by many. That does not mean that the bible less valuable to many, but it is not as important to ALL as SOME think it is.
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Old 12-02-2007, 06:37 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
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That does not mean that the bible less valuable to many, but it is not as important to ALL as SOME think it is.
My point is that all humans view themselves as the pinnacle of (God's) creation. Maybe some individuals will think differently, unfortunately they are of no consequence as long as the masses believe themselves to be God's most important creation and act accordingly.
Man is an animal, but views himself superior, because he believes to be intelligent. Whether you believe yourself to be intelligent or not, it still doesn't change the fact that man is like any other animal, thus cannot be more important.
Why do we believe that man is superior to all the other animal & plant life? Because the Bible tells us so. We have known this 'truth' for so long that we do not question it, it has become self-evident.
To us it is only natural that God gave us stewardship over the earth and that it is our right to do with nature as we see fit.
Didn't God create nature for the benefit of man?

A human life is not more worth than those of other animals, yet no human will act otherwise. Somehow the idea that man is the top of the pyramid is ingrained in our sub consciousness. We believe ourselves to be the top of the food chain, the tip of the pyramid. There is no pyramid, meaning there is no top or bottom.
If we keep exterminating animals because we humans do not believe them important, we'll only have exterminated ourselves in the end. We are just a part of nature as any other animal or plant life and every part is important.

In a sense it doesn't matter what we believe, since our actions alone are evidence enough that we believe that man is superior to all other plant & animal live. We do with them as we please, regardless of the consequences.
Whether we view ourselves as theists or atheists, it appears to be impossible for man to believe that he is no more important than his environment.
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Old 12-02-2007, 06:50 AM
 
Location: NC
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Hi Padgett, Jesus dying on the cross for our sins and coming to save us from sin is basic Christian teaching.

Quote:
Saying that all Christians believe that they need God to be saved is not a generalisation. All Christians have to believe this,
I know that there are many people who say that they believe that Jesus was only a good man and don't consider themselves to be Christians, but they say that they follow His teachings. The point that I was trying to make is just because many have done wrong in regard to Christianity, this does not mean that the belief that mankind is flawed and in need of a Savior is wrong. Take care and God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 12-02-2007 at 07:56 AM..
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