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I am aware that our works in terms of merit by themselves may appear as filthy rags to our Lord, but in some mysterious way they do score points with God, not because of our desire to score points to get into heaven but simply by virtue of the fact that Jesus commands us to do them; we do them out of love for Him ("If you love Me keep My commandments") expecting no reward and somehow, some way God works them into the completion of our salvation along with faith in Christ. Thus faith + good works = salvation.
It seems to me too that it is obvious from the Bible that our good works are important to God in some way. Lots of the letters in the New Testament are encouragement to Christians to continue in their good works and to not fall back into sin (this sort of admonishment would be unnecessary if good works were unimportant or that if when we experience God somehow we magically cease to fall back into sin); so obviously there is an element of co-operation involved on our part.
Yet we must never lose sight of how the purpose of life is to glorify God, meaning all our works done must be out of love for Him and for His glorification; of course there are many people who do good for the betterment of humanity yet do not know God--these are the works, as harsh as it is to accept, that will not merit any favor before God because they are not accompanied by a love for Him.
This is something I find hard to accept b/c I want good works to be worth something (even those done by the unregenerate--for how am I to know that they might not come to know God, or do so already? We also must never forget that we can never tell for certain if someone knows God). Since God gave me the ability to believe upon Him, I have come to a greater love for people since I see them now (or try to see them, sometimes it is really difficult!) as the bearers of God's image--it distresses me to think that those sacrifices for the betterment of humanity can't work somehow to attaining some sort of favor from God, yet at the same time it also distresses me that the people who work in such a way do not know my Lord and Saviour. It amounts to almost a sort of physical feeling of tearing within me--Oh, that they would know the Lord who wants their betterment, who came to earth in human form to serve them, that desires nothing to us but love. It is sad, and I can't think of it without much distress--but I trust in our merciful, compassionate God; I know that He is just, righteous and loving and that all will be made right in the end.
Perhaps the seeming discrepancy in our views lies in what we actually mean by salvation? From what I have learned thus far, it seems salvation means to not be cut off from communion with God for eternity. It is not a quality but a quantity, meaning either you are or you are not. Yet, from my reading in the Bible it also seems that there may be certain qualities of eternity that occur after one receives salvation--this is just an idea that is floating around my mind which comes up every now and then when I would read passages from the Bible which seem to indicate something like that (so I haven't formed any concrete beliefs regarding this sort of thing and tend to think it is not something we are going to have any clear revelation from God about, just something we have take on the act of trusting Him--that all that will be done onto us then will be just).
It seems to me too that it is obvious from the Bible that our good works are important to God in some way. Lots of the letters in the New Testament are encouragement to Christians to continue in their good works and to not fall back into sin (this sort of admonishment would be unnecessary if good works were unimportant or that if when we experience God somehow we magically cease to fall back into sin); so obviously there is an element of co-operation involved on our part.
Sorry I cut off so much of what you wrote. I am not arguing that good works are not an essential aspect of our Christian walk for they certainly are rewarding and God pleasing. One comment on good works though. I've read many books and articles over the years that say not all "works" are of God or pleasing to God. Without naming particular works because many on this forum think they are pleasing God by performing them, most authors simply lump works into one of two groups, God-produced&pleasing and Not God produced&pleasing or Man Made-man pleasing. You sound like an open minded, sincere person that might enjoy finding out what works please God and are God produced and those that are done to please Man.
Of course if we could earn our salvation, what do we need Jesus for? If the original disciples said by keeping the Law you would be justified, why were they believers at all? They would essentially continue Judaism.
Some say Jesus claimed He was the Messiah, along with a bunch of others during that time period. So after He died, His following should have ceased. Yet they continued after His crucifixion. In order to continue preaching the name of Jesus, there had to be some extraordinary claims from the beginning. There would also have to be an explanation why He died on the cross. Why did He die? He died for the sins of mankind. He rose again for our justification. So if we are justified in Him already, what is left for us to do, to earn God's favor? It's all done. It doesn't make sense to say Jesus paid my way to God, but I'm paying my way to God. Is it paid or is it not paid?
This shows us that out of all the big name followers of Jesus, Paul probably got this message the best. Well, either Paul or John. (John's name by the way means "God is graceful") The works that we do, will determine the rewards we receive in Heaven. Yet concerning Heaven, it's a done deal. We are the adopted sons and daughters of God in Jesus. We are now in the family business of the kingdom of heaven.
The tormentor will be given many lashes; all that he has dished out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DewDropInn
That's an interesting answer, Jerwade.
I failed to get one from PastorAl. Hmmm.... perhaps he has me on ignore.
Or perhaps pastors simply ask many questions while picking and choosing the ones they actually answer.
For some reason, the necessity of being accountable escapes them.
The "reaping what we sow" aspect is ignored, Jerwade. Our task is seen as stroking the ego of God the Father by believing whatever "precepts and doctrines of men" about His Son are part and parcel of their chosen religion. If God's ego is satisfied by their acceptance of these beliefs ABOUT Jesus . . . everything is cool. That is the essence of easy believism.
Apparently, they need a scapegoat.
Instead of girding up one's loins.
It's not a matter of how much, but of the attitude that prompts what is done. Lessee, is this 372 times this has been explained?
Heart=core of being, and it is a matter of the heart, not externals. Let me know if you get it this time so I don't have to look around for other ways to explain what is readily apparent to one who lives in the Spirit of that concern for the well-being of others that is agape.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur
At least that many times.Moderator cut: orphaned
Moderator cut: delete The idea that our "fruits" are the indicators of our "belief ON" Jesus . . . (not our proclamations of belief) . . . is unacceptable. ANY implication that we have any requirements to actually DO anything besides "believe" is simply not acceptable.
Ironically . . . Vizio is right as regards our salvation but not for the reasons he thinks. NONE of us have anything to do with our salvation. Jesus did it for us all, period. But we DO have to concern ourselves with our sanctification under His love for us all by striving to "love God and each other" daily and repent when we don't. That is how we attune our Spirits to His and achieve the cover of His perfection for our imperfections.
Last edited by Miss Blue; 02-15-2014 at 11:07 AM..
Reason: answering to a deleted part of quote
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