U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 02-15-2008, 08:30 PM
 
Location: southern california
47,976 posts, read 43,427,781 times
Reputation: 38755
the message of the bible shouts at us. its simple direct and true. everything they dug up supports it. its not a history book for the most part
its literature good literature inspired.
reading and living it would dissolve mean streets.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 02-16-2008, 05:07 AM
 
Location: Florida and East "by God" Tennessee
1,889 posts, read 2,654,264 times
Reputation: 763
Sola Scripture.

The Bible in it's 66 books written by many different authors. The Bible remains and shall forever remain, God's guide for life. It is as relevant today as it was from the moment His word was revealed. To believe anything thing else, is false.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-16-2008, 08:49 AM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
146 posts, read 194,918 times
Reputation: 55
A decent summary of the history of the Bible exists here:
Bible - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
And while this is a "worldly" source, the notion that "the Bible is whole and complete and perfect" is an invention of humankind. I think it must have seemed logical to someone, but at no point does the Bible expressly teach that idea.

Many have snatched passages here or there and drastically taken them out of context to mean or to imply that "the Bible is whole, complete and perfect." But in all cases the person drawing those conclusions is conveniently ignoring a LOT of details, all while turning the specified passage's meaning onto it's head. They can and do make a single verse stretch for miles and they do it without shame.

The Dead Sea Scrolls are of obvious importance. They are now the oldest Old Testament manuscripts that we have, which likely makes them less subject to transcriptional errors and unintentional alteration of the texts. Not only are these texts older. They are MUCH older.

The portion of the Dead Sea Scrolls that focuses on sectarian writings (the teachings of the sect that built and lived in Qumran are questionable. I am not sure that I am willing to accept their faith as the true faith. Some have implied that these were actually Christians or that "the Teacher of Righteousness" was John the Baptist, or that John the Baptist was one of them. All of it is very speculative. The sectarian writings remain questionable in my mind.

The Nag Hamadi scrolls are a preserved library of books of Gnostic Christians. The majority of the "unique" contents of the Nag Hamadi scrolls already existed within Apocryphal and Pseudopigraphorical texts that were rejected from the canon of the Old and New Testament. The important matter at hand for these scrolls is this: Any theologian knows that there were many flavors of Christianity in the early days (100 A.D. - 600 A.D.) These texts are those of one of those lost and ignored parts of ancient Christianity. You can take this many different ways:
1.) You can determine that Gnostic Christianity was the real thing, but that it was lost.
2.) You can decide (as I have) that many of the teachings of the Gnostics were correct but that some of their teachings are not correct. Essentially, in their eradication, Catholicism "threw out the baby with the bathwater." In other words, true teachings were erased from memory in their zeal to eliminate what they perceived to be false.
3.) You can toss the whole library into the collective pile of "questionable works" generally referred to as the Pseudopigrapha.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-16-2008, 12:23 PM
 
224 posts, read 254,837 times
Reputation: 47
Please....... Wikipedia is about useless as teats on a boar hog.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-18-2008, 04:20 AM
 
Location: Oxford, England
13,040 posts, read 14,216,248 times
Reputation: 19328
I believe scrolls have been found. Many of them. Some contemporary with the era we attribute to Christ. It does not mean they are a proof of God's existence or the validity of the bible.

A scroll is a scroll. Written by human hands. A book of sorts. A document. It's fascinating from a historical point of view and the Archaeology of it is truly interesting but religion-wise, it hardly provides much evidence of divinity.

We have many ancient religious documents from other religions too , but I assume this will not convert Christians to Hinduism, Ancient Egypt religions, or any other religions for that matter. To them it will just be texts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-21-2008, 10:35 PM
 
4,812 posts, read 4,785,323 times
Reputation: 2457
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marks View Post
They are not valid, apostolic, inspired texts as the present canon is. These are gnostic texts that the heretics flooded into circulation. They are not valid, trustworthy, authoritative, and certainly not inspired! They would be best displayed as artwork nothing more.

Sorry...I forgot were Yaldabaoth died and left you in charge.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-21-2008, 10:36 PM
 
4,812 posts, read 4,785,323 times
Reputation: 2457
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder View Post
A1.) You can determine that Gnostic Christianity was the real thing, but that it was lost.
What do you mean by "lost"? I'm a gnostic Christian, and I am right here at home...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-21-2008, 10:38 PM
 
4,812 posts, read 4,785,323 times
Reputation: 2457
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooseketeer View Post
I believe scrolls have been found. Many of them. Some contemporary with the era we attribute to Christ. It does not mean they are a proof of God's existence or the validity of the bible.

A scroll is a scroll. Written by human hands. A book of sorts. A document. It's fascinating from a historical point of view and the Archaeology of it is truly interesting but religion-wise, it hardly provides much evidence of divinity.

We have many ancient religious documents from other religions too , but I assume this will not convert Christians to Hinduism, Ancient Egypt religions, or any other religions for that matter. To them it will just be texts.
Yes, I agee. The Nicene Christians will stay Nicene no matter what. However, the Nag Hammadi Library has helped trigger the regrowth of Gnostic Christianity in America and the world.

Apostolic Johannite Church :: An Esoteric Gnostic Christian Communion with Valid Apostolic Succession
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-21-2008, 10:41 PM
 
4,812 posts, read 4,785,323 times
Reputation: 2457
Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisW View Post
I think the key is that they weren't taken out of the Bible--they were never in. I could write "the Gospel of Travis" and claim that it was kicked out of the Bible; and my claim would be as incorrect as those made by proponents of "Lost Books". I look at them as slices of literature from early sects (mostly Gnostic) as opposed to some sort of lost Christian literature.

They were "never in the Bible" because when the Bible was created and the Gospels were assembled, it was Emperor Constantine who over saw the council of Nicea and had them only choose books that fit his world view, and the independent minded Gnostics were not a part of that view.

The Nicene bible was not assembled by the Apostles, but by man. To hold the Nicene bible in esteem like that is to put man above Christ.

I practice Christianty...not Churchianity.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-21-2008, 10:47 PM
 
Location: Pawnee Nation
7,125 posts, read 9,237,693 times
Reputation: 6395
I liked the Apocrypha of James, the Gospel of James, the Gospel of Mary and the Gospel of Thomas. The Gospel of Phillip was interesting as well. I am planning to read the Gospel of Judas this winter, but I am sure he was much maligned by the churches over the past 2000 years.....but then I've always thought that. Jesus HAD to be betrayed....that was part of his plan. There were two ways of having it done....1) by selling out the Master for a few bucks, or 2) by agreement between Judas and Jesus so the prophesies would be fulfilled. I cannot imagine that the Prince of Peace would have blindsided Judas (one of his favorite disciples) by ordaining him to be a betrayer. The only alternate answer is that Judas knew full well what was going to happen and, knowing the Master wanted it, agreed to do it.

The Dead Sea Scrolls, the Nag Hammadi Library, the Gospel of Judas are those books that were never really "lost." They were not included as canon at the Council of Nicaea when the Bible as we know it today (with the exception of the apocryphal texts in the RC Bible). There are two schools of thought about this. One, is that they did not reach the veracity needed to be included in the Bible. The other school of thought was that those books/letters that did not support the Emperor and his throne were excluded.

These excluded books/letters WERE foundational in the Gnostic teachings, but about 400 CE the Constintinian (Roman/Eastern Orthodox/Coptic) churches waged a war of extermination against the Gnostic, killing many and forcing the rest into exile or hiding. Thus the Gnostic teachings and the letters and books they used were hidden in the caves around the Dead Sea and at the Nag Hammadi. I am sure there are complete writings of all the books/letters not included in the Bible in the library at the Vatican.

Last edited by Goodpasture; 12-21-2008 at 10:55 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $79,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top