Where in the scriptures does it say God's Grace is free? (Tanakh, HaShem)

[Croref]

Originally Posted by Mikelee81

JESUS says it.. the scripture has already been posted.. now you just have to see it.

Moderator cut: delete

Here is what the Bible does say that you must reconcile if you want to know God's salvation: Man found favor with God by obeying Him. God's Grace is His favor. That will cover all the examples to the contrary, you can post.

[Mikelee81]

Originally Posted by Richard1965

I think Yeshua is speaking of those spiritually dead...Notice the bolded...


to receive lesser or greater condemnation?...Sounds like Pagan Greek levels of Hell or Chinese multiple Hells...

These are not my words..

Matthew 23:14
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

The Bible talks about levels of damnation.. not multiple "hells".

[Croref]

Originally Posted by Heavenese

It seems the only book that matters, is the Book of Life. All that is written here is a person's name, and not their works. (As it's said anyone who was not written in this book, was cast into the lake of fire) So how can one's name be written in the Book of Life? Jesus said the disciples names were written in the Book of Life. So to be written there, all you do is simply receive Jesus.

Not so. You have a very incomplete understanding on that line of reasoning. For starters while keeping in mind salvation is a promise, you might ask yourself the question: When does obedience to the commands of Jesus Christ come into play?

[Mikelee81]

Originally Posted by Croref

Moderator cut: delete
Here is what the Bible does say that you must reconcile if you want to know God's salvation: Man found favor with God by obeying Him. God's Grace is His favor. That will cover all the examples to the contrary, you can post.

Those that receive Christ freely by His Grace being "born again" have a new nature..

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

One that desires to obey God in Christ..

Romans 2:29
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

In the Old Covenant, Man was commanded to circumcise their heart..

Deuteronomy 10:16
Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

In the New Covenant, GOD circumcises the heart.. God speaking in the Old Testament about the New Covenant.

Ezekiel 36:25-27 (KJV)

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.



While God does not change (Malachi 3:6), His covenant relationship with sinful Man has changed.. As Man failed to keep the first covenant.. He has established the second.. We must "rightly divide the Word of Truth"..

There is a difference between the Old and New Covenant..

John 7:37-39 (KJV)

37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


JESUS had to first be glorified on the cross before the Holy Spirit would be given.. This is first witnessed at Pentecost..


God's Grace is freely received when one receives Christ in the new birth when they "call upon the Name of the Lord to be Saved." from their spirit/heart.. That is their merit.. nothing.. This person has "passed from death unto life" and has a new nature to submit and obey God as He is working to conform them into the image of His Son.

It will not be a perfect obedience.. and like Jacob we may wrestle with God.. but He is going to win.. Fruit will no doubt result from God working in the regenerate..

Those regenerate will persevere and overcome as GOD is preserving them as JESUS High Priest after the Order of Melchizedek is interceding for the saints..

Hebrews 7:24-26 (KJV)
24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Those that apostatize in the Faith were never regenerate or born again.

1 John 2:18-20 (KJV)

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.


Those being discussed in the epistle of John are identified as those that have received God's "anointing".. those that are born again.. Justified by His Spirit.. Forgiven.. Freely Pardoned by His Grace through Christ.

Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.


How do we know if we are Saved by the Blood of Christ?

John 10
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.


Born Again Believers in Christ justified by His Holy Spirit can find rest for their souls in the following verse..


John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

[Croref]

Originally Posted by Mikelee81

Those that receive Christ freely by His Grace being "born again" have a new nature..

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

One that desires to obey God in Christ..

Romans 2:29
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

In the Old Covenant, Man was commanded to circumcise their heart..

Deuteronomy 10:16
Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

In the New Covenant, GOD circumcises the heart.. God speaking in the Old Testament about the New Covenant.

Ezekiel 36:25-27 (KJV)

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.



While God does not change (Malachi 3:6), His covenant relationship with sinful Man has changed.. As Man failed to keep the first covenant.. He has established the second.. We must "rightly divide the Word of Truth"..

There is a difference between the Old and New Covenant..

John 7:37-39 (KJV)

37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


JESUS had to first be glorified on the cross before the Holy Spirit would be given.. This is first witnessed at Pentecost..


God's Grace is freely received when one receives Christ in the new birth when they "call upon the Name of the Lord to be Saved." from their spirit/heart.. That is their merit.. nothing.. This person has "passed from death unto life" and has a new nature to submit and obey God as He is working to conform them into the image of His Son.

It will not be a perfect obedience.. and like Jacob we may wrestle with God.. but He is going to win.. Fruit will no doubt result from God working in the regenerate..

Those regenerate will persevere and overcome as GOD is preserving them as JESUS High Priest after the Order of Melchizedek is interceding for the saints..

Hebrews 7:24-26 (KJV)
24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Those that apostatize in the Faith were never regenerate or born again.

1 John 2:18-20 (KJV)

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.


Those being discussed in the epistle of John are identified as those that have received God's "anointing".. those that are born again.. Justified by His Spirit.. Forgiven.. Freely Pardoned by His Grace through Christ.

Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.


How do we know if we are Saved by the Blood of Christ?

John 10
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.


Born Again Believers in Christ justified by His Holy Spirit can find rest for their souls in the following verse..


John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Sorry Mike not so as you have it. You have the New birth as being something it isn't. Permit me to ask this question: Do you think one can be saved if, in the afterwards of saying a sinners prayer, he has no desire to know God?

[Mikelee81]

Originally Posted by Croref

Sorry Mike not so as you have it. You have the New birth as being something it isn't. Permit me to ask this question: Do you think one can be saved if, in the afterwards of saying a sinners prayer, he has no desire to know God?

It is impossible for one that has truly called upon the name of the Lord from the heart (not some superficial "sinners prayer" for show to not have a desire to know God.. Because the desire to know God comes from God.. His Spirit working in the individual.. The Spirit which He gives..

Philippians 2:12-13 (KJV)

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


If one has no desire to know God than they are not Saved.. they have not received forgiveness of sins.. They are not born again by His Holy Spirit.

[Richard1965]

Originally Posted by Heavenese

It seems the only book that matters, is the Book of Life. All that is written here is a person's name, and not their works. (As it's said anyone who was not written in this book, was cast into the lake of fire) So how can one's name be written in the Book of Life? Jesus said the disciples names were written in the Book of Life. So to be written there, all you do is simply receive Jesus.

It states those names have were written from the foundation of the world, so how can they be recorded dynamically?...

[Richard1965]

Originally Posted by Mikelee81

These are not my words..

Matthew 23:14
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

The Bible talks about levels of damnation.. not multiple "hells".

Multiple hells are synonymous with levels of hell...And you did not address the "and" there...

[Richard1965]

Originally Posted by Croref

Not so. You have a very incomplete understanding on that line of reasoning. For starters while keeping in mind salvation is a promise, you might ask yourself the question: When does obedience to the commands of Jesus Christ come into play?

We are told to be like Yeshua...How did He walk?...

[tonytonytony]

People think no old law today mean free grace.
Free from old law is the only thing free today.
They admit the 10 commandments still apply today.
They admit the 2 greatest commandments still apply today.
They don't admit John 3:5 applies today.
They don't admit Hebrews 4 applies today.
They don't admit 1 Timothy 6 applies today.
They admit no Jewish segregation today.
They don't admit 2 Cor. 6 does apply today.
They admit Romans 2:1 applies today.
They don't admit James 5:20 applies today.
They admit marriage is Christianity.
They don't admit Romans 7:2 is Christianity today.
They don't admit 1 Timothy 5:9 is Christianity today.
They admit sharing Jesus is Christianity.
They don't admit Matthew 7:6 is Christianity today.
They admit praying is Christianity.
They don't admit John 17:9 is also Christianity today.
They admit love is Christianity.
They don't admit 1 John 2:15 is Christianity today too.
They admit forgiveness is Christianity.
They don't admit Titus 3:10 is also Christianity too.
They admit faith is Christianity.
They don't admit Romans 12:3 is also Chrisitanity too today.
They admit generousity is Chrisitianity.
They don't admit 2 Thess. 3:10 is also Christianity too today.
They admit grace is Christianity.
They don't admit Romans 6:1 is also Christianity today.
They admit the preaching of Jesus is Christianity today.
They don't admit 1 Cor. 14:34-35 is also Christianity today.
They admit wisdom is Christianity.
They don't admit Isaiah 64:6 is also Christianity today.
They admit hearing a voice is Christianity.
They don't admit Romans 10:17 is also Christianity.
They admit prosperity is Christianity.
They don't admit Luke 3:14 is also Chrisitanity today.
They admit tongues is Christianity.
They don't admit ALL of 1 Cor. 14 is also Christianity today.
They admit the bible is Christianity.
They don't admit 2 Timothy 3:16 is also Christianity today.
They admit honor is Christianity.
They don't admit 2 Peter 1:20-21 is also Christianity today.
They admit submission is Christianity.
They don't admit Matthew 15:14 and Romans 13:1 is also Christianity today.
They admit Ephesians 2:8 is Christianity.
They don't admit Matthew 5:17-20 is also Christianity today.
They admit knowledge is Christianity.
They don't admit 1 John 2:27 is also Christianity today.
They admit inner beauty is Christianity.
They don't admit 1 Peter 3:3 is also Christianity today.
They admit goals is Christianity.
They don't admit John 8:31 is also Christianity today.
They admit raising your family is Christianity.
They don't admit Matthew 10:34-37 is also Christianity today.
They admit making friends is Christianity.
They don't admit Luke 6:26 is also Christianity today.
They admit that eating and drinking and being merry is Christianity.
They don't admit that 1 Peter 4:1-4 is also Christianity today.
They admit that discipline is Christianity.
They don't admit that Matthew 4:4 is also Christianity.
They admit that optimistic thinking is Christianity.
They don't admit that John 5:39 is also Chrisitianity today.
They admit that getting along with people is Christianity.
They don't admit that Amos 3:3 is also Christianity today.

Time for 100% bible believers to come together and do church right----Psalms 133:1 !!!

Time for them to do set goals to be together ONLY-----Matthew 5:6 !!!

Whether your the worst sinner or not it matters not ; just be a 100% bible believer
ONLY----John 8:31 and 2 Cor. 6 !!!

Anybody can get a sweety in the bar-----1 Peter 4:1-4.

Anybody can get a blood boaster in a religious place---Romans 6:1.

Anybody can get a philosopher with opinions-----2 Peter 1:20-21.

Anybody can get a counselor for their life----Psalms 1.

All about 100% bible believers coming together ONLY----Psalms 133:1 and John 17:21 !!!

This what evangelism about ONLY----Matthew 7:6 !!!

This what prayer about ONLY----John 17:9 !!!

This what holiness about ONLY----2 Timothy 3:16 !!!

This what a relationship with God about ONLY----John 8:31 !!!

This what hope about ONLY-----Romans 12:3 !!!

This what mercy about ONLY----Romans 6:1 !!!

This the only love about anything ONLY----1 John 2:15 !!!

This the only safety ONLY-----John 5:39 !!!

Originally Posted by Croref

Hi all! My handle is "Croref" (short for Cross Reference) I am new to this forum and looking for objective debaters of opposite persuasion than my own on any given subject. I like to ask questions that stimulate thinking even within those who might agree with me. __And yes I am not a newby to the scriptures and always looking to challenge, be challenged and be taught by others of honest persuasion. Thanks in advance for putting up with me. . . OMT: I do so appreciate the one who doesn't go circular; who can admit when he is wrong or has been adjusted/rectified in his/her understanding. Be assured I will exhibited the same disposition . .

I want to begin at the beginning by asking: "Where in the scriptures does it say God's Grace is free __without cost? "Unmerited"?