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Anyone else embarrassed to be a Christian by threads like this?
My best guess would be that Jesus never said anything like this, but the author was simply making a pun (the ancients loved puns). Or Jesus said something like this but was likewise making a pun, without intending to say anything of cosmic significance that would have believers at each others' throats 2,000 years later.
Good Lord, if you want to be a Catholic and believe Peter was the first Pope, be my guest. If you want to be a Baptist and believe Peter was just another apostle, be my guest. But don't embarrass Christianity by trying to cram your views down other believers' throats in public.
I sometimes think it would be a wonderful idea if new Christians were given one year to absorb the Bible (a month would probably be sufficient, actually) and then told: "There, YOU CAN NEVER LOOK AT IT AGAIN. Get on with leading your Christian life." "Bible insanity" seems to me to a disease that has all but destroyed Christianity.
Dude:
I am not a Bible literalist. As a Catholic I don't even own a Bible!
The Bible is a book full of allegories and may serve as a wonderful spiritual guide.
All religion is man made, I have no issues with that. However, in my case Catholicism is my cultural heritage which I have passed to my children by sending them to Catholic School for 12 years.
My conversations with Bible Literalists are done as an exercise in theology. I certainly do not pretend to have all the answers, however, I am willing to discuss the bible with the Sola Scriptura folks. I find I have gained a lot of Bible knowledge which as you know is generally not the case with Catholics. I have also learned a great deal about why some protestants think the way they do and find it very useful.
Last edited by Julian658; 02-23-2014 at 08:49 PM..
But I believe the bible was written by God Himself. It was & Is mathematically Impossible for men to have written that book.
40 murdering misfits wrote 66 books over a period of thousands of years and they were all in prefect agreement with each other on every single controversial subject under the sun. Jesus Christ is the main character on every page and in every book .
He is the "Word of God" a living book.
Moses was taught by God Himself the first 5 books of the bible letter by letter. If just one letter is out of place - then the whole marvelous mathematical design structure of 7's completely collapses. That is our assurance (That is God's hand-print) that this book is as God intended to be in our time.
Psalm 119 is the greatest psalm written by King David . The longest psalm - 176 verses and every verse - cept 2 - 174 verses deal directly with David's Love for God's Word - It is the most wonderful Love story ever written. And... he wrote that - when he only had 5 books!!
All through the bible in hundreds of different places we are commanded by God to teach our children diligently God's Word 4 times a day every day!
When you get up; when you sit down; when you walk by the way; before you go to bed at night. (Deuteronomy 6: 4 - 12)
Why any parent would deny their children frm reading God's wonderful words are beyond anything that I am capable of ever comprehending.
My life was going no where; tossed like a wave in the sea; It wasn't until I started reading and believing & acting upon God's Word; that the results He promised began to happen in my life.
If man wrote the bible then it would be very easy to duplicate Genesis 1:1
Prove me wrong!! I challenge you!
One sentence - seven words - 28 letters; now include 35 instances of 7. Then I will believe everything you say! But it is beyond the capabilities of any man.
Lets look at all the verses in context: And I will use KJB so you cannot yell foul.
This is during a time when many doubted the divinity of Jesus. Then, Peter who is clearly the Chief Apostle recognizes Jesus as the son of God. Then Jesus says that the revelation to Peter came from his father in heaven.
Clearly Matthew 16: 17 is a blessing of immense proportion from the Lord to Peter, no doubt here. Peter has been recognized, blessed, and singled out.!
Then Jesus says:
If we are following the dialogue between Jesus and Peter in Matthew 17: 15-17 it is quite clear Jesus is addressing Peter. Why would Jesus decide to minimize Peter as little Peter following the enormous exultation and recognition of the chief apostle? It makes ZERO sense to assume Jesus is talking about little pebbles and large stones. Context is everything here!
But, if you still have doubts. Matthew 16: 18 is then followed by an incredible verse that solidifies the primacy of Peter.
BTW, I recommend you hear Jimmy Aikin a former Protestant who was on his way to become a minister.
There is nothing establishing Peter as above all the other Apostles. Also, Jesus is the Chief Apostle AND Lord. They are all stones/rocks according to Christ. They are all likened to the stones/rocks that comprise the Spiritual Temple.
Anyone else embarrassed to be a Christian by threads like this?
My best guess would be that Jesus never said anything like this, but the author was simply making a pun (the ancients loved puns). Or Jesus said something like this but was likewise making a pun, without intending to say anything of cosmic significance that would have believers at each others' throats 2,000 years later.
Good Lord, if you want to be a Catholic and believe Peter was the first Pope, be my guest. If you want to be a Baptist and believe Peter was just another apostle, be my guest. But don't embarrass Christianity by trying to cram your views down other believers' throats in public.
I sometimes think it would be a wonderful idea if new Christians were given one year to absorb the Bible (a month would probably be sufficient, actually) and then told: "There, YOU CAN NEVER LOOK AT IT AGAIN. Get on with leading your Christian life." "Bible insanity" seems to me to a disease that has all but destroyed Christianity.
There is nothing establishing Peter as above all the other Apostles. Also, Jesus is the Chief Apostle AND Lord. They are all stones/rocks according to Christ. They are all likened to the stones/rocks that comprise the Spiritual Temple.
They (12 Apostles) Will judge the 12 tribes of Israel.Matthew 19:28
There is nothing establishing Peter as above all the other Apostles. Also, Jesus is the Chief Apostle AND Lord. They are all stones/rocks according to Christ. They are all likened to the stones/rocks that comprise the Spiritual Temple.
I will skip Matthew 16: 17-19 and go on to the next reasons why Peter was the main apostle
Quote:
4. Peter's name occurs first in all lists of apostles (see Mt 10:2; Mk 3:16; Lk 6:14; Acts 1:13). Matthew even calls him "the first" (10:2). (Judas Iscariot is invariably mentioned last.)
5. Peter is almost without exception named first whenever he appears with anyone else. In one example to the contrary, Galatians 2:9, where he is listed after James and before John, he is clearly pre-eminent in the entire context (see, for example, 1:18-19; 2:7-8).
6. Peter alone among the apostles receives a new name, "Rock," solemnly conferred (Jn 1:42; Mt 16:18).
7. Likewise, Peter is regarded by Jesus as the chief shepherd after himself (Jn 21:15-17), singularly by name, and over the universal Church, even though others have a similar but subordinate role (Acts 20:28; 1 Pt 5:2).
8. Peter alone among the apostles is mentioned by name as having been prayed for by Jesus Christ in order that his "faith fail not" (Lk 22:32).
9. Peter alone among the apostles is exhorted by Jesus to "strengthen your brethren" (Lk 22:32).
10. Peter first confesses Christ's divinity (Mt 16:16).
11. Peter alone is told that he has received divine knowledge by a special revelation (Mt 16:17).
12. Peter is regarded by the Jews (Acts 4:1-13) as the leader and spokesman of Christianity.
13. Peter is regarded by the common people in the same way (Acts 2:37-41; 5:15).
14. Jesus Christ uniquely associates himself and Peter in the miracle of the tribute money (Mt 17:24-27).
15. Christ teaches from Peter's boat, and the miraculous catch of fish follows (Lk 5:1-11): perhaps a metaphor for the pope as a "fisher of men" (Mt 4:19).
16. Peter was the first apostle to set out for, and enter, the empty tomb (Lk 24:12; Jn 20:6).
17. Peter is specified by an angel as the leader and representative of the apostles (Mk 16:7).
18. Peter leads the apostles in fishing (Jn 21:2-3,11). The "bark" (boat) of Peter has been regarded by Catholics as a figure of the Church, with Peter at the helm.
19. Peter alone casts himself into the sea to come to Jesus (Jn 21:7).
20. Peter's words are the first recorded and most important in the Upper Room before Pentecost (Acts 1:15-22).
21. Peter takes the lead in calling for a replacement for Judas (Acts 1:22).
22. Peter is the first person to speak (and only one recorded) after Pentecost, so he was the first Christian to "preach the Gospel" in the Church era (Acts 2:14-36).
23. Peter works the first miracle of the Church Age, healing a lame man (Acts 3:6-12).
24. Peter utters the first anathema (Ananias and Sapphira) emphatically affirmed by God (Acts 5:2-11).
25. Peter's shadow works miracles (Acts 5:15).
26. Peter is the first person after Christ to raise the dead (Acts 9:40).
27. Cornelius is told by an angel to seek out Peter for instruction in Christianity (Acts 10:1-6).
28. Peter is the first to receive the Gentiles, after a revelation from God (Acts 10:9-48).
29. Peter instructs the other apostles on the catholicity (universality) of the Church (Acts 11:5-17).
30. Peter is the object of the first divine interposition on behalf of an individual in the Church Age (an angel delivers him from prison—Acts 12:1-17).
31. The whole Church (strongly implied) prays for Peter "without ceasing" when he is imprisoned (Acts 12:5).
32. Peter presides over and opens the first council of Christianity, and lays down principles afterward accepted by it (Acts 15:7-11).
33. Paul distinguishes the Lord's postresurrection appearances to Peter from those to other apostles (1 Cor 15:4-5).
34. Peter is often spoken of as distinct among apostles (Mk 1:36; Lk 9:28, 32; Acts 2:37; 5:29; 1 Cor 9:5).
35. Peter is often spokesman for the other apostles, especially at climactic moments (Mk 8:29; Mt 18:21; Lk 9:5; 12:41; Jn 6:67).
36. Peter's name is always the first listed of the "inner circle" of the disciples (Peter, James and John—Mt 17:1; 26:37, 40; Mk 5:37; 14:37).
37. Peter is often the central figure relating to Jesus in dramatic Gospel scenes such as walking on the water (Mt 14:28-32; Lk 5:1, Mk 10:28; Mt 17:24).
38. Peter is the first to recognize and refute heresy, in Simon Magus (Acts 8:14-24).
39. Peter's name is mentioned more often than all the other disciples put together: 191 times (162 as Peter or Simon Peter, 23 as Simon and 6 as Cephas). John is next in frequency with only 48 appearances, and Peter is present 50 percent of the time we find John in the Bible. Archbishop Fulton Sheen reckoned that all the other disciples combined were mentioned 130 times. If this is correct, Peter is named a remarkable 60 percent of the time any disciple is referred to.
40. Peter's proclamation at Pentecost (Acts 2:14-41) contains a fully authoritative interpretation of Scripture, a doctrinal decision and a disciplinary decree concerning members of the "House of Israel"—an example of "binding and loosing."
41. Peter was the first "charismatic," having judged authoritatively the first instance of the gift of tongues as genuine (Acts 2:14-21).
42. Peter is the first to preach Christian repentance and baptism (Acts 2:38).
43. Peter (presumably) takes the lead in the first recorded mass baptism (Acts 2:41).
44. Peter commanded the first Gentile Christians to be baptized (Acts 10:44-48).
45. Peter was the first traveling missionary, and first exercised what would now be called "visitation of the churches" (Acts 9:32-38, 43). Paul preached at Damascus immediately after his conversion (Acts 9:20), but had not traveled there for that purpose (God changed his plans). His missionary journeys begin in Acts 13:2.
46. Paul went to Jerusalem specifically to see Peter for 15 days at the beginning of his ministry (Gal 1:18), and was commissioned by Peter, James and John (Gal 2:9) to preach to the Gentiles.
47. Peter acts, by strong implication, as the chief bishop/shepherd of the Church (1 Pt 5:1), since he exhorts all the other bishops, or "elders."
48. Peter interprets prophecy (2 Pt 1:16-21).
49. Peter corrects those who misuse Paul's writings (2 Pt 3:15-16).
50. Peter wrote his first epistle from Rome, according to most scholars, as its bishop, and as the universal bishop (pope) of the early Church. "Babylon" (1 Pt 5:13) is regarded as code for Rome.
I will skip Matthew 16: 17-19 and go on to the next reasons why Peter was the main apostle
Dear Julian,
Despite the fact that Peter had a problem with humility, which is why he was chosen to fulfill Ze 11:17, and Judas Iscariot was chosen to fulfill Ze 11:13, because he liked money, you can simply go to: Matthew 20:16 NAS "So the last shall be first, and the first last."
With children of God, there is only one leader, teacher, and Father. (Mt 23:8-10) For children of hell, those "who guide this people are leading them astray:" (Is 9:16-17)
Dear Julian,
Despite the fact that Peter had a problem with humility, which is why he was chosen to fulfill Ze 11:17, and Judas Iscariot was chosen to fulfill Ze 11:13, because he liked money, you can simply go to: Matthew 20:16 NAS "So the last shall be first, and the first last."
Out of context and unrelated.
Quote:
With children of God, there is only one leader, teacher, and Father. (Mt 23:8-10)
Oh, please! Another quote out of context:
Here is the whole bible passage. Matthew 23: 1-10
Quote:
Matthew 23:1-10 (New American Standard)View In My Bible
1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2 saying : "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses ; 3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds ; for they say things and do not do them. 4 "They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger.#rl 5 "But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men ; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments. 6 "They love the place of honor at banquets and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7 and respectful greetings in the market places, and being called Rabbi by men. 8 "But do not be called Rabbi ; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 "Do not call anyone on earth your father ; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 "Do not be called leaders ; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.
Jesus is talking about the hypocrites that are vain-----those who are pious for show and "don't do as I say". See the bold part. This is not good sportmanship from your part and may mislead the naive who are bible literalists.
Acts 7:2
New International Version (NIV)
2 To this he replied: “Brothers and fathers, listen to me! The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham while he was still in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Harran.
Romans 9:10
New International Version (NIV)
10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac.
Here Timothy calls himself a teacher (Rabbi).
1 Timothy 2:7
New International Version (NIV)
7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.
Fundamentalists themselves slip up on this point by calling all sorts of people "doctor," for example, medical doctors, as well as professors and scientists who have Ph.D. degrees (i.e., doctorates). What they fail to realize is that "doctor" is simply the Latin word for "teacher." Even "Mister" and "Mistress" ("Mrs.") are forms of the word "master," also mentioned by Jesus. So if his words in Matthew 23 were meant to be taken literally, Fundamentalists would be just as guilty for using the word "teacher" and "doctor" and "mister" as Catholics for saying "father." But clearly, that would be a misunderstanding of Christ’s words.
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