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Old 03-05-2014, 09:53 AM
 
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The New Testament talks about things like "dying with Christ" or being "crucified with Christ" and being "reborn" in the Spirit. If believers are reborn, then that would mean that their first resurrection has already occurred and that it was a spiritual one. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Elijah, etc. They have all experienced a spiritual resurrection, just like believers since the time of Christ. And they are alive today spiritually.

Jesus:
"But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”
When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at his teaching.
(Matthew 22)

Revelation 20:1-6 is the only place that mentions the so-called "millennial reign" of Christ. But many churches are preaching a pre-millennial "rapture" based on nothing more than what may be a possible misinterpretation of the First Resurrection.

What do you think? Should an entire new doctrine (Dispensationalism) be followed just because one person misinterpreted those 6 verses?
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Old 03-05-2014, 10:45 AM
 
Location: Central Maine
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Don't believe in the whole "rapture" theory myself. I don't see it in scripture. I think when it happens "every eye shall see it". As far as "I tell you a secret"...well the invasion of Normandy on D-Day was a big secret....until it happened. Christ has already come. the second time will be a "universe changer".
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Old 03-05-2014, 10:46 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
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This should probably be moved to the Christianity forum.

But for what it's worth, based on coming out of Dispensationalism (and having had some contact with Dispensationalism taken to its logical extreme -- Hyperdispensationalism with the resulting rejection of all but Paul's writings as binding on modern Christians), my answer would be "no".

Eschatology is often based on thin scriptural evidence and questionable interpretations. There is really no un-forced interpretation of the feverish imagery in The Revelation. You can build a case (if you ignore the likely date for the writing of the Revelation) for the Antichrist being Nero, the tribulation being the sacking of Jerusalem in the late 1st century CE, and therefore most of The Revelation having been fulfilled already or if there is any fulfillment yet to come it is a double fulfillment of some kind. The 7 year tribulation divided into two 3.5 year periods has been recognized all over the place (for example, Titus' siege of Jerusalem was 3.5 years long). It is a vague enough prophecy that anyone looking to feed an apocalyptic cult can see similarities to then-current events, in the tribulation.

The appeal of the Great Tribulation is that it makes a good exciting yarn to keep the faithful awake and to be another threat of suffering (in addition to hell) to compel the fearful to convert before it's too late. It is working less and less well these days because the unambiguous prophecies of Jesus and various NT authors that Christ's return was literally imminent, even within the lifetime of the listeners, is getting ever longer in the tooth and therefore not at all credible anymore.
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Old 03-05-2014, 11:46 AM
 
5,496 posts, read 4,403,478 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
The New Testament talks about things like "dying with Christ" or being "crucified with Christ" and being "reborn" in the Spirit. If believers are reborn, then that would mean that their first resurrection has already occurred and that it was a spiritual one. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Elijah, etc. They have all experienced a spiritual resurrection, just like believers since the time of Christ. And they are alive today spiritually.

Jesus:
"But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”
When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at his teaching.
(Matthew 22)

Revelation 20:1-6 is the only place that mentions the so-called "millennial reign" of Christ. But many churches are preaching a pre-millennial "rapture" based on nothing more than what may be a possible misinterpretation of the First Resurrection.

What do you think? Should an entire new doctrine (Dispensationalism) be followed just because one person misinterpreted those 6 verses?
There is a problem here and it is right in the context of the verse you quoted in Matt.22:32. In verse 30 Jesus says in response to the Sadducees' belief that there is no resurrection - 'In the resurrection they...'

It would seem that what Jesus is saying is that the resurrection, from the time of his speaking, is yet to happen. What he is saying is that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are not really dead (as in absolutely dead) but alive, in spirit, awaiting the resurrection (seen elsewhere as 'fallen asleep' and 'paradise'). And this is clear precisely because a Sadducee does not believe in a resurrection and therefore once you die that is it - you are dead - completely dead.

As a side note the Sadducees' only believed in the Torah (first 5 books of the HB) and so Jesus is quoting from there instead of elsewhere. But I also find it interesting that the resurrection is not taught in the Torah. The context of the passage Jesus is quoting was not about the resurrection but about the the name that was revealed to Moses - the I AM and YHWH. This is why the quote uses the phrase 'I am the God of...' Jesus uses this as a proof text of the resurrection. A little speculative I must say - but the degree to which the religious were able to twist things, even today, is amazingly ingenious. So if they are alive, even after they have died physically, then God can say that he is their God at that very moment - 'I am' not 'I was.' But as noted the original quote was not in that context.

On another side note, Paul taught that the resurrection took place at the 2nd coming. The rapture is just the resurrection for those that happen to be alive when Christ returns. They are changed in a moment in a twinkling of an eye, etc.

Last edited by Shiloh1; 03-05-2014 at 12:15 PM..
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Old 03-05-2014, 04:16 PM
 
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Rev 13 seems to be predicting the destruction of the 2nd temple, since (I think) it references the similar event concerning the 1st temple in Jeremiah.

But I think it is a mistake to read the entire book like a sequential story. It is written from a heavenly/spiritual view, or it seems that way.
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Old 03-05-2014, 07:44 PM
 
8,559 posts, read 11,882,943 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
On another side note, Paul taught that the resurrection took place at the 2nd coming. The rapture is just the resurrection for those that happen to be alive when Christ returns. They are changed in a moment in a twinkling of an eye, etc.
Yes, I agree that the real resurrection occurs at the last day when Christ returns. But Revelation 20 mentions a "first" resurrection which implies that there is a later one. And I think the "first" one is referring to the spiritual rebirth.

Dispensationalists try to insert a THIRD one called the "secret rapture". Or some have even said it only refers to those who were beheaded during the tribulation. Only those few partake in the first resurrection. I interpret the beheading as a figurative term for the spiritual rebirth of all believers.
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Old 03-09-2014, 07:47 PM
 
28 posts, read 21,874 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
The New Testament talks about things like "dying with Christ" or being "crucified with Christ" and being "reborn" in the Spirit. If believers are reborn, then that would mean that their first resurrection has already occurred and that it was a spiritual one. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Elijah, etc. They have all experienced a spiritual resurrection, just like believers since the time of Christ. And they are alive today spiritually.

Jesus:
"But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”
When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at his teaching.
(Matthew 22)

Revelation 20:1-6 is the only place that mentions the so-called "millennial reign" of Christ. But many churches are preaching a pre-millennial "rapture" based on nothing more than what may be a possible misinterpretation of the First Resurrection.

What do you think? Should an entire new doctrine (Dispensationalism) be followed just because one person misinterpreted those 6 verses?
Hi OzzyRules- John 3:13 states that "More over, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man." That scripture tells us that until Jesus' death and resurrection, no one had ever died and gone to heaven. Matthew 11:11 says "Truly I say to you, among those born of women, there has not been raised up anyone greater than John the Baptist, but a lesser person in the Kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is." I point out that scripture because although he was a great man, we know that he died before Jesus, and since John 3:13 tells us that Jesus was the first man to walk the earth and go to heaven, we know that all who died prior to Jesus are dead and awaiting the resurrection to an earthly paradise. Before Jesus' death, there was no hope for a resurrection, either on earth or in the heavens.

I think 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 goes along great with Revelations 20:1-6. It shows that at the end of Jesus' millennial reign, and all things have been restored to it's perfect state, Jesus will then hand the Kingdom back over to his father.

I'm not well versed in what many churches teach, but I do know that the "first resurrection" are those that Jesus has appointed to reign with him in heaven and rule over all of the earth, until Jesus hands the Kingdom back to God.

I have a hard time understanding what people believe the rapture to be. I've heard some say that when it happens, they will just "go to heaven." That doesn't make much sense to me, since 1 Corinthians 15:50 states that "flesh and blood cannot inherit God's Kingdom."

Amber
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Old 03-10-2014, 01:14 AM
 
758 posts, read 563,798 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A.C.E 2007 View Post
Hi OzzyRules- John 3:13 states that "More over, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man." That scripture tells us that until Jesus' death and resurrection, no one had ever died and gone to heaven. Matthew 11:11 says "Truly I say to you, among those born of women, there has not been raised up anyone greater than John the Baptist, but a lesser person in the Kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is." I point out that scripture because although he was a great man, we know that he died before Jesus, and since John 3:13 tells us that Jesus was the first man to walk the earth and go to heaven, we know that all who died prior to Jesus are dead and awaiting the resurrection to an earthly paradise. Before Jesus' death, there was no hope for a resurrection, either on earth or in the heavens.

I think 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 goes along great with Revelations 20:1-6. It shows that at the end of Jesus' millennial reign, and all things have been restored to it's perfect state, Jesus will then hand the Kingdom back over to his father.

I'm not well versed in what many churches teach, but I do know that the "first resurrection" are those that Jesus has appointed to reign with him in heaven and rule over all of the earth, until Jesus hands the Kingdom back to God.

I have a hard time understanding what people believe the rapture to be. I've heard some say that when it happens, they will just "go to heaven." That doesn't make much sense to me, since 1 Corinthians 15:50 states that "flesh and blood cannot inherit God's Kingdom."

Amber
Why did you stop reading or quoting; ? Two verses later is the answer. "We will be "changed" (DNA) In the "twinkling" of the eye. 1st Corinthians 15:52

Quote:
When does the "first resurrection" occur?
I assure you it is before the Second One.
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Old 03-10-2014, 05:10 AM
 
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When the Pharisees asked him about the resurrection, his response was that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were alive.

Doesn't that sound like the first resurrection is the spiritual birth?
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Old 03-10-2014, 08:18 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,823 posts, read 9,815,113 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
When the Pharisees asked him about the resurrection, his response was that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were alive.

Doesn't that sound like the first resurrection is the spiritual birth?
Yes you're correct, it's the spiritual.
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