Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
"The modern evangelical view of baptism is actually the new view, an interpretation of baptism that was invented only in the early 1520s. It was created by the Swiss reformer Huldreich Zwingli (1484-1531), developed further by John Calvin, and accepted throughout most of the Protestant world. Until Zwingli, the entire Christian world for the first 1,500 ears of its history was in agreement: water baptism is the God-appointed time when he first gives saving grace to sinners." (Jack Cottrell; The History of Baptism)
Even Zwingli agreed that the consensus among all Christians was that water baptism is the God-appointed time when He first gives saving grace. Zwingli said that this view went all the way back to the apostles. Zwingli accuses them ALL of being wrong from the beginning.
Zwingli said, "in this matter of baptism, all the [teachers] have been in error from the time of the apostles" (P. 40)
(You can find Zwingli quotes here. Baptism and the Remission of Sins: An Historical Perspective, edited by David Fletcher (Joplin: College Press, 1990), 39-81.)
Cottrell in his article states:
"All our doctrinal convictions, while grounded ultimately upon the Bible alone, should be developed in full view of past and present Christian thinking. A knowledge of the historical development of any doctrine is extremely valuable; it can enrich our understanding as well as help us avoid serious doctrinal errors."
"The modern evangelical view of baptism is actually the new view, an interpretation of baptism that was invented only in the early 1520s. It was created by the Swiss reformer Huldreich Zwingli (1484-1531), developed further by John Calvin, and accepted throughout most of the Protestant world. Until Zwingli, the entire Christian world for the first 1,500 ears of its history was in agreement: water baptism is the God-appointed time when he first gives saving grace to sinners." (Jack Cottrell; The History of Baptism)
Even Zwingli agreed that the consensus among all Christians was that water baptism is the God-appointed time when He first gives saving grace. Zwingli said that this view went all the way back to the apostles. Zwingli accuses them ALL of being wrong from the beginning.
Zwingli said, "in this matter of baptism, all the [teachers] have been in error from the time of the apostles" (P. 40)
(You can find Zwingli quotes here. Baptism and the Remission of Sins: An Historical Perspective, edited by David Fletcher (Joplin: College Press, 1990), 39-81.)
Cottrell in his article states:
"All our doctrinal convictions, while grounded ultimately upon the Bible alone, should be developed in full view of past and present Christian thinking. A knowledge of the historical development of any doctrine is extremely valuable; it can enrich our understanding as well as help us avoid serious doctrinal errors."
Blessings,
Katie
What if Zwingli is wrong? He wasn't there in the beginning either.
"The modern evangelical view of baptism is actually the new view, an interpretation of baptism that was invented only in the early 1520s. It was created by the Swiss reformer Huldreich Zwingli (1484-1531), developed further by John Calvin, and accepted throughout most of the Protestant world. Until Zwingli, the entire Christian world for the first 1,500 ears of its history was in agreement: water baptism is the God-appointed time when he first gives saving grace to sinners." (Jack Cottrell; The History of Baptism)
Man made stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (see bold). They go as far as to say the Apostles are wrong.
Since Cornelius and his household, who were Gentiles, (Acts chapter 10) received forgiveness of sins and received the Holy Spirit BEFORE being baptized in water, then obviously water baptism is NOT the God-appointed time when he first gives saving grace to sinners.
Acts 10:43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins." 44] While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45] All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46] For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47] "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" 48] And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.
What if Zwingli is wrong? He wasn't there in the beginning either.
Zwingli was wrong. He came along 1500 years after the church began and introduced a different view, the one you happen to ascribe to. The consensus to that point was that baptism was the time God chose to bestow His gift of salvation. Zwingli believed everyone for the first 1500 years of Christianity was mistaken all the way back to the apostles.
Baptism is for the forgiveness of sins and to be received into the church.
Acts 2:38
38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 22:16
16 Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.’
1 Peter 3:21
21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God [a]for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jesus believed in the baptism of children:
Luke 18:15-16
15 And they were bringing even their babies to Him so that He would touch them, but when the disciples saw it, they began rebuking them. 16 But Jesus called for them, saying, “Permit the children to come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
Matthew 19:14
14 But Jesus said, “Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”
Since Cornelius and his household, who were Gentiles, (Acts chapter 10) received forgiveness of sins and received the Holy Spirit BEFORE being baptized in water, then obviously water baptism is NOT the God-appointed time when he first gives saving grace to sinners.
Acts 10:43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins." 44] While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45] All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46] For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47] "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" 48] And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.
Zwingli believed that all of the fathers were wrong about baptism, all the way back to the apostles. Zwingli admitted that the consensus of all Christians was that baptism was the time God forgives sins. He was the innovator, the one to say it was not so in 1523 AD. Calvin took it from there.
You're ignoring 1500 years of church history where all Christians believed and taught baptism was for the remission of sins. You hold the Zwingli view, which is the new modern way of looking at baptism.
I challenge you or anyone to prove that Christians held your view of baptism prior to Zwingli.
Man made stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (see bold). They go as far as to say the Apostles are wrong.
I don't know that Zwingli went that far, but he did say EVERYONE, going back to the apostles, had the wrong view of water baptism. He claimed his "new" way of seeing baptism was the correct view. Imagine that! Christians for 1500 years had it all wrong.
I believe the church fathers held the same view the apostles held. They may not have all agreed on the mode, but they sure agreed on the purpose.
Baptism is for the forgiveness of sins and to be received into the church.
Acts 2:38
38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 22:16
16 Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.’
1 Peter 3:21
21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God [a]for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jesus believed in the baptism of children:
Luke 18:15-16
15 And they were bringing even their babies to Him so that He would touch them, but when the disciples saw it, they began rebuking them. 16 But Jesus called for them, saying, “Permit the children to come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
Matthew 19:14
14 But Jesus said, “Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”
Yes, and the church fathers saw it this way for 1500 years. Then Mr. Zwingli comes along and says everyone was wrong. Go figure!
It's good to trace historically any doctrine you hold.
Since Cornelius and his household, who were Gentiles, (Acts chapter 10) received forgiveness of sins and received the Holy Spirit BEFORE being baptized in water, then obviously water baptism is NOT the God-appointed time when he first gives saving grace to sinners.
Acts 10:43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins." 44] While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45] All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46] For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47] "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" 48] And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl
Zwingli believed that all of the fathers were wrong about baptism, all the way back to the apostles. Zwingli admitted that the consensus of all Christians was that baptism was the time God forgives sins. He was the innovator, the one to say it was not so in 1523 AD. Calvin took it from there.
You're ignoring 1500 years of church history where all Christians believed and taught baptism was for the remission of sins. You hold the Zwingli view, which is the new modern way of looking at baptism.
I challenge you or anyone to prove that Christians held your view of baptism prior to Zwingli.
Church history is not the issue. The church had, and has, different beliefs on certain issues. And there was a lot of legalism in the early church. The issue is what the Bible says about the matter. And it is very clearly shown in Acts 10:43-48 that Cornelius and his household were saved before they were baptized in water. Their sins were forgiven, and they received the Holy Spirit while Peter was still speaking the gospel to them which they believed. It was only after that that they were then baptized in water.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
