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Isn't it interesting that there are no priests mentioned in the Nt as being in the "Church"? The words for pastor.minister.bishop, etc are not the words for priest. That arrangement was gone. Funny how some want to have the title to exalt and separate themselves from others.
You believe in the "Trinity" don't you? How about the "Rapture?" "The Tribulation?" Those words are not in the New Testament either.
By the way...
The English word "priest" is derived from the Greek word presbuteros, which is commonly rendered into Bible English as "elder" or "presbyter." The ministry of Catholic priests is that of the presbyters mentioned in the New Testament (Acts 15:6, 23). The Bible says little about the duties of presbyters, but it does reveal they functioned in a priestly capacity.
They were ordained by the laying on of hands (1 Tm 4:14, 5:22), they preached and taught the flock (1 Tm 5:17), and they administered sacraments (Jas 5:13-15). These are the essential functions of the priestly office, so wherever the various forms of presbuteros appear--except, of course, in instances which pertain to the Jewish elders (Mt 21:23, Acts 4:23)--the word may rightly be translated as "priest" instead of "elder" or "presbyter." Episcopos arises from two words, epi (over) and skopeo (to see), and it means literally "an overseer": We translate it as "bishop." The King James Version renders the office of overseer, episkopen, as "bishopric" (Acts 1:20). The role of the episcopos is not clearly defined in the New Testament, but by the beginning of the second century it had obtained a fixed meaning. There is early evidence of this refinement in ecclesiastical nomenclature in the writings of Ignatius of Antioch (d. A.D. 107), who wrote at length of the authority of bishops as distinct from presbyters and deacons (Epistle to the Magnesians 6:1, 13:1-2; Epistle to the Trallians 2:1-3; Epistle to the Smyrnaeans 8:1-2).
The New Testament tendency to use episcopos and presbuteros interchangeably is similar to the contemporary Protestant use of the term "minister" to denote various offices, both ordained and unordained (senior minister, music minister, youth minister). Similarly, the term diakonos is rendered both as "deacon" and as "minister" in the Bible, yet in Protestant churches the office of deacon is clearly distinguished from and subordinate to the office of minister.
In Acts 20:17-38 the same men are called presbyteroi (v. 17) and episcopoi (v. 28). Presbuteroi is used in a technical sense to identify their office of ordained leadership. Episcopoi is used in a non-technical sense to describe the type of ministry they exercised. This is how the Revised Standard Version renders the verses: "And from Miletus he [Paul] . . . called for theelders [presbuteroi]of the church. And when they came to him, he said to them . . . 'Take heed to yourselves and all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you guardians [episcopoi], to feed the church of the Lord.'"
In other passages it's clear that although men called presbuteroi ruled over individual congregations (parishes), the apostles ordained certain men, giving them authority over multiple congregations (dioceses), each with its own presbyters. These were endowed with the power to ordain additional presbyters as needed to shepherd the flock and carry on the work of the gospel. Titus and Timothy were two of those early episcopoi and clearly were above the office of presbuteros. They had the authority to select, ordain, and govern other presbyters, as is evidenced by Paul's instructions: "This is why I left you in Crete . . . that you might appoint elders in every town as I directed you" (Ti 1:5; cf. 1 Tm 5:17-22). (Catholic Answers)
You believe in the "Trinity" don't you? How about the "Rapture?" "The Tribulation?" Those words are not in the New Testament either.
By the way...
The English word "priest" is derived from the Greek word presbuteros, which is commonly rendered into Bible English as "elder" or "presbyter." The ministry of Catholic priests is that of the presbyters mentioned in the New Testament (Acts 15:6, 23). The Bible says little about the duties of presbyters, but it does reveal they functioned in a priestly capacity.
They were ordained by the laying on of hands (1 Tm 4:14, 5:22), they preached and taught the flock (1 Tm 5:17), and they administered sacraments (Jas 5:13-15). These are the essential functions of the priestly office, so wherever the various forms of presbuteros appear--except, of course, in instances which pertain to the Jewish elders (Mt 21:23, Acts 4:23)--the word may rightly be translated as "priest" instead of "elder" or "presbyter."
Interestingly enough, the online etymology dictionary gives Priest as follows: priest (n.) Old English preost probably shortened from the older Germanic form represented by Old Saxon and Old High German prestar, Old Frisian prestere, all from Vulgar Latin *prester "priest," from Late Latin presbyter "presbyter, elder," from Greek presbyteros (see Presbyterian).
An alternative theory (to account for the -eo- of the Old English word) makes it cognate with Old High German priast, prest, from Vulgar Latin *prevost "one put over others," from Latin praepositus "person placed in charge," from past participle of praeponere (see provost). In Old Testament sense, a translation of Hebrew kohen, Greek hiereus, Latin sacerdos. Which to some extent supports your theory, except that in the Greek NT the two offices were distinct and separate and if "priest" in the common sense were meant there the other term ἱερεὺς would certainly be used rather than a more general term like overseer.
You may recall that Jesus was called before the chief priests AND elders. Also that each congregation had more than one elder.
Our ignorant ancestors were absolutely terrified of Spirits. This illusion was necessary because they were carnal-minded. Those who are carnal-minded are enamored with and identify with the physical body. This is main reason for parables and "milk." The spiritual-minded understand that a physical body can not walk through walls and appear in a closed room . . . or like the wind go wherever, etc. Whatever is born of the Spirit IS Spirit.
Maybe your ancestors were ignorant, but mine weren't!
And the apostles and/or the writers of the Scriptures weren't ignore or uneducated either. Luke was a doctor. Matthew was a tax collector which meant he could read/write Hebrew, Greek and Latin [the 3 languages used in the day]. Peter/Andrew and James/John were not only fishermen, but had businesses as well.
The ruling class/religious leaders/rulers of Christ's day, because of their pride/arrogance, called these followers of Christ and GOD "ignorant" (Acts 4:13). However God used these same 'ignorant' men at Pentecost where 3,000 souls were added to the church, and then to go on to change the world with the gospel of the kingdom.
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty (1 Cor 1:27).
Quote:
Whatever is born of the Spirit IS Spirit.
Just to show you how important the Scriptures are to explain things let's look at the actual passage you're quoting:
Joh. 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of [1]the Spirit ] is [2]spirit.
[1] The Holy Spirit, (with the article) is to pneuma to hagion which literally means "The Spirit The Holy Spirit."
[2] pneuma [breath or wind]
So Christ was telling Nicodemus he needed to be born of The Spirit The Holy Spirit i.e born again/born of God, born of The Spirit, regenerated.
Christ, God in the flesh, died a physical death, as THE sinless Lamb of God, was in the 'earth' 3 full days and 3 full nights, and then was resurrected from the dead to a flesh and bone [not flesh and blood] body. He didn't need to be born of The Spirit The Holy Spirit/born again. What blasphemy to say He needed regeneration.
Last edited by mshipmate; 03-27-2014 at 05:46 PM..
Reason: correct spelling
Maybe your ancestors were ignorant, but mine we're.
And the apostles and/or the writers of the Scriptures weren't ignore or uneducated either. Luke was a doctor. Matthew was a tax collector which meant he could read/write Hebrew, Greek and Latin [the 3 languages used in the day]. Peter/Andrew and James/John were not only fishermen, but had businesses as well.
The ruling class/religious leaders/rulers of Christ's day, because of their pride/arrogance, called these followers of Christ and GOD "ignorant" (Acts 4:13). However God used these same 'ignorant' men at Pentecost where 3,000 souls were added to the church, and then to go on to change the world with the gospel of the kingdom.
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty (1 Cor 1:27).
Just to show you how important the Scriptures are to explain things let's look at the actual passage you're quoting:
Joh. 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of [1]the Spirit ] is [2]spirit.
[1] The Holy Spirit, (with the article) is to pneuma to hagion which literally means "The Spirit The Holy Spirit."
[2] pneuma [breath or wind]
So Christ was telling Nicodemus he needed to be born of The Spirit The Holy Spirit i.e born again/born of God, born of The Spirit, regenerated.
Christ, God in the flesh, died a physical death, as THE sinless Lamb of God, was in the 'earth' 3 full days and 3 full nights, and then was resurrected from the dead to a flesh and bone [not flesh and blood] body. He didn't need to be born of The Spirit The Holy Spirit/born again. What blasphemy to say He needed regeneration.
Our ignorant ancestors were absolutely terrified of Spirits. This illusion was necessary because they were carnal-minded. Those who are carnal-minded are enamored with and identify with the physical body. This is main reason for parables and "milk." The spiritual-minded understand that a physical body can not walk through walls and appear in a closed room . . . or like the wind go wherever, etc. Whatever is born of the Spirit IS Spirit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate
Just to show you how important the Scriptures are to explain things let's look at the actual passage you're quoting:
Joh. 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of [1]the Spirit ] is [2]spirit.
[1] The Holy Spirit, (with the article) is to pneuma to hagion which literally means "The Spirit The Holy Spirit."
[2] pneuma [breath or wind]
So Christ was telling Nicodemus he needed to be born of The Spirit The Holy Spirit i.e born again/born of God, born of The Spirit, regenerated.
Christ, God in the flesh, died a physical death, as THE sinless Lamb of God, was in the 'earth' 3 full days and 3 full nights, and then was resurrected from the dead to a flesh and bone [not flesh and blood] body. He didn't need to be born of The Spirit The Holy Spirit/born again. What blasphemy to say He needed regeneration.
That is NOT what the verses in John 3 are telling Nicodemus.
John 3:2-8 (King James Version)
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jesus answered, John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
These passages suggest that we will be born again after our death as a Spirit because we obviously cannot be a Spirit while still in our mortal body. That which is born of Spirit is Spirit. No one can flit about like the wind in their physical bodies. This is contrary to the beliefs of those many “born again” Christians who think they are “born again” while still alive in their mortal body. This after death concept is reinforced in 1 Corinthians 15:36:
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die
The confusion stems from an improper understanding of the phrase translated as "born again" (gennaō anothen) in the verses above. It actually means conceived or begotten from above, from a higher place, of things that come from heaven or God. It does not mean an actual birth. The phrase “born again” can be made clearer by understanding the phrase it most resembles “born of God” (gennaō ek theos "begotten of God") which means "to be conceived by God" as a spiritual embryo. This is what those who call themselves "born again" while still in the flesh are actually referring to . . . being "born of God" or conceived/begotten.
Embryos must mature sufficiently to actually be born. It is our actions in "love of God and each other" through our lives that achieves that spiritual maturation and determines what we have "built upon the foundation of Jesus"(wood, hay, stubble or gold, silver, etc.)
That is NOT what the verses in John 3 are telling Nicodemus.
John 3:2-8 (King James Version)
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jesus answered, John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
These passages suggest that we will be born again after our death as a Spirit because we obviously cannot be a Spirit while still in our mortal body. That which is born of Spirit is Spirit. No one can flit about like the wind in their physical bodies. This is contrary to the beliefs of those many “born again” Christians who think they are “born again” while still alive in their mortal body. This after death concept is reinforced in 1 Corinthians 15:36:
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die
The confusion stems from an improper understanding of the phrase translated as "born again" (gennaō anothen) in the verses above. It actually means conceived or begotten from above, from a higher place, of things that come from heaven or God. It does not mean an actual birth. The phrase “born again” can be made clearer by understanding the phrase it most resembles “born of God” (gennaō ek theos "begotten of God") which means "to be conceived by God" as a spiritual embryo. This is what those who call themselves "born again" while still in the flesh are actually referring to . . . being "born of God" or conceived/begotten.
Embryos must mature sufficiently to actually be born. It is our actions in "love of God and each other" through our lives that achieves that spiritual maturation and determines what we have "built upon the foundation of Jesus"(wood, hay, stubble or gold, silver, etc.)
Sad to say but you are mixing Scripture with mysticism:
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die
You have pulled one sentence out of context to suit your doctrine. That sentence is explaining how Christ will raise our mortal body to immortal when He returns: 1 Corin. 15:
32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise [resurrect back to life] not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body [soma] do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, [to make alive] except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body [soma].
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in *glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body[soma]; it is raised a spiritual body(soma). There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (soma)
*glory:
Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Quote:
These passages suggest that we will be born again after our death as a Spirit because we obviously cannot be a Spirit while still in our mortal body. That which is born of Spirit is Spirit. No one can flit about like the wind in their physical bodies. This is contrary to the beliefs of those many “born again” Christians who think they are “born again” while still alive in their mortal body. This after death concept is reinforced in 1 Corinthians 15:36:
Quote:
No one can flit about like the wind in their physical bodies.
Again, you don't understand what Paul was saying. First, when he used the word 'wind' he was using a 'word play' while referring to The Holy Spirit [the definition of spirit is breath or wind ]. Paul didn't mean the wind that blows things around.
v.8 The *wind[pneuma] bloweth where it listeth(desires) and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
*wind note the definition of the word 'wind' in this passage is pneuma not anemos as used here:
Joh 6:18 And the sea arose by reason of a great wind that blew.
Last edited by mshipmate; 03-29-2014 at 10:12 AM..
Reason: add Scripture
You believe in the "Trinity" don't you? How about the "Rapture?" "The Tribulation?" Those words are not in the New Testament either.
quote]
Dear Gabriel,
The "Trinity" is a false concept, inaugurated by a daughter of Babylon, riding on the head of the beast with two horns like a lamb (Rev 13:11). The "Rapture" is simply a concept which is mostly hype. It takes an event and shapes it into something which it is not. As for "The Tribulation", it is called "a great tribulation" (Mt 24:21). A good detailed described, in part, can be found in in Ze 14:12, and in Joel 2:31-32, can be found a general overview.
Sad to say but you are mixing Scripture with mysticism:
You have pulled one sentence out of context to suit your doctrine. That sentence is explaining how Christ will raise our mortal body to immortal when He returns: 1 Corin. 15:
32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise [resurrect back to life] not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body [soma] do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, [to make alive] except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body [soma].
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in *glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body[soma]; it is raised a spiritual body(soma). There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (soma)
It is NOT out of context because what being "born again" refers to is what you call the resurrection (in a carnal-minded love of our physical body) . . . but it is rebirth as Spirit just like Christ. He had to reassure the carnal-minded people of His time who were deathly afraid of Spirits using illusions because they were too carnal-minded to accept the truth. They NEEDED the "milk." But Christ's rebirth as Spirit is how His Holy Spirit (His human consciousness) became available to us all as the Comforter upon His death. The only resurrection that we will experience is when we are ACTUALLY "born again" as a Spirit in an incorruptible spiritual body. All those who want this physical body with all its drawbacks will continue to expect a physical resurrection. They will be surprised when it does not happen. We are nurturing a spiritual embryo (our consciousness) that will be "born again" as Spirit upon our death.
Quote:
Again, you don't understand what Paul was saying. First, when he used the word 'wind' he was using a 'word play' while referring to The Holy Spirit [the definition of spirit is breath or wind ]. Paul didn't mean the wind that blows things around.
v.8 The *wind[pneuma] bloweth where it listeth(desires) and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
"That which is born of Spirit IS Spirit." There is no confusion because "that which is born of Flesh is Flesh." They are two very different births with two very different outcomes. The verse is trying to make it clear (without alraming them) that their rebirth (resurrection) as Spirit will be different. While in our physical bodies we are only "born of God" (conceived/begotten). It is a conception NOT a birth. We have to nurture our embryo Spirit while it is in this physical womb through the exercise of "love of God and each other" daily and by repenting when we don't.
Dear Gabriel,
The "Trinity" is a false concept, inaugurated by a daughter of Babylon, riding on the head of the beast with two horns like a lamb (Rev 13:11). The "Rapture" is simply a concept which is mostly hype. It takes an event and shapes it into something which it is not. As for "The Tribulation", it is called "a great tribulation" (Mt 24:21). A good detailed described, in part, can be found in in Ze 14:12, and in Joel 2:31-32, can be found a general overview.
No, not true. Trinity, was coined as a means for us to simply have a greater understanding of God. The term is not in Scripture, but the concept was taught and is present in Scripture The Trinity's definition is Father, Son & Holy Spirit. 3 Persons in One God. It's that simple.
Some Protestants, believe in the term, Rapture & Tribulation, because they believe wrongly, but never the less believe that there concepts were taught in Scripture. FYI, these terms and beliefs only appeared on the scene in the 19th Century.
My point is that their are obviously "man-made" words that explain what Doctrines we belive are taught in Scripture.
As far as Catholics go. We believe Christ left us with an authoritative, teaching Church. If Catholics were free to attempt to interpret the bible individually, we would be Protestants and thus all differing from the original Church. It should be noted, however, we are free to choose some things such as, Creationism or Evolution. The important thing to remember is that whether we came into this world by either way, we are God-made. In other words, if I were to believe in Evolution, as a Catholic, I do not have a problem believing that God is the creator of Evolution. It's kind of like believing that God created the trees, but he also created the seeds.
As far as Adam & Eve go. Yes they were the real. They were the 1st creature's to have human souls, where ever that might have been along the human Evolutionary chain. God would have decided when.
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