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I'm back for the moment...Wow,this forum is quite impressive if this thread is already on the second page...I hate digging up threads but I had to see the response and since it was decently researched, I had to respond to it even though I'm still stretching for time. Yeah you haven't gotten rid of me yet..even though I do feel a bit silly debating this topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA
Please note the lexicons I used were both Biblical and non biblical, show it shows the common meanings to a Greek speaker. However if we sue the cross references in Scripture we find indications that Prostitution was not the issue.
ASV Matthew 5:32 but I say unto you, that every one that putteth away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, maketh her an adulteress: and whosoever shall marry her when she is put away committeth adultery.
This cannot be prostitution
Glad to see you are digging deeper rather than just relying on tradition and the typical verses but I think you are not reading my post completely as I have already said this word can be used metaphorically to describe Idolatry and Incest and maybe even a few other things (but that's biblically questionable if we are trying to be literalists). Even in the verse on divorce, it could still be prostitution since many women wanted to make money back than and that was one of the few ways they could do it...or more likely idolatry since porneia is used as a metaphor for idolatry quite often in the bible. Some scholars actually believe that the "except for porneia" was not Jesus' words and was added later. Protestants seem to think it means adultery or any sexual sin and Catholics seem to think it means unchastity. The point is that there is huge disagreement on what this word means in this context.
But lets say this verse does include "unchastity" as King James believes. I've already in previous posts why "playing the Harlot while living in her fathers house" (Torah reference from Deuteronomy 22) is sinful. Reading the Torah Law, it doesn't take genius a to figure out that it robs the father of the Dowry and lineage rights which was a big no no in Hebrew culture. If the father was known, then he just payed the full dowry to the father for messing up the fathers bargaining and lineage rights (Exodus 22:16+). No sin sacrifice required and no law regarding women who were single and not living in their fathers house and no law period for the man unless he raped her or slept with someones wife...and since dowries are irrelevant today and the overall cultural role understanding of marriage is radically different, trying to draw a parallel should be too much of a stretch for even conservative protestant Christians considering the exceptions that have already made to tradition through "reunderstandings" of various verses and doctrines (most of which I agree with). All they had back then was the Old Testament writings back then so their understandings would have been based off of them and what ever newer traditions they accepted at the time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA
ASV Acts 15:20 but that we write unto them, that they abstain from the pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from what is strangled, and from blood.
A broad statement that would include prostitution, but not be limited to it.
ASV 1 Corinthians 5:1 It is actually reported that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not even among the Gentiles, that one of you hath his father's wife.
Again not prostitution.
I already covered this, but I will say we don't know enough about the situation to make a firm judgment as to what is actually going on here. It may not even be in the traditional incest since Paul used the term "fathers wife" rather than "mother" but it would still be adultery..which might be considered a form of prostitution in his eyes." Further more, his step mother could have been an actual prostitute perhaps even a cultic one since she was willing to sleep with her step son and the Torah never directly condemns non-cultic prostitution as sin (though, this may have been because women often had no other choice to support themselves with no husband).
Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA
ASV 1 Corinthians 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
It could include it but is not limited to it.
While some verses can be seen to include the idea of prostitution, the broader meaning always includes sex outside of marriage.
Ignore the Latin as we know the Hebrew and Greek words. The word covers a broad range of meanings, but in everyone, even prostitution, we can't ignore that such includes sex outside of a marriage. Symbolically we can commit fornication against God, as we love something more then Him. Mix other worship with what is true, thus polluting our relationship with God. Conservative VS Liberal is really a side issue.
The idea of Harlotry can be seen in the Hebrew but again a person having sex with a prostitute or harlot is having sex outside of marriage.
I will be interested in what you find, but try to show it does not include sex outside marriage at all?
Again, we have to be careful about mixing and matching cultures. The Torah is very specific and it is so for a reason...in fact its so specific that I've heard that most conservative Jews don't even consider all forms of premarital sex to be a a literal sin by their definition. Paul was speaking to a group of people who where living in Cornith which was filled to the brim with prostitutes that had a huge sigma of cultic worship through their trade and it was considered normal and perhaps even socially advantageous to go bang a few once in a while.
Trying to compare this radically different cultural situation to our own enough of a stretch already. Virtually calling every honest well-intentioned modern sexual boy-friend/girlfriend relationship "prostitution," is in my opinion, unacceptable and a biblically questionable indulgence into tradition and legalism. We've pushed back the average logical age of marriage at least 10 years compared to bible times and we can't just buy off spouses like we use to ;p It seems "nature calls" sooner than most of Christianity would like it to Add gender equality, educational requirements, earlier physical maturity, and birthcontrol to the mix and we have culture that would look like a sci-fi novel to bible time people. Rather than trying to force-fit a Klingon Culture into a Romulan Culture, I suggest we not only be more critical about what the the letter of the law actually says, but focus more on the intention of the law by following the two greatest commandments. Love God, Love eachother. It may not always be perfectly wise and it may not always be ideal, but then again, God never gave us instructions on how to drive in LA traffic either.
I hope this gives you enough to chew on for a while, because I'm pretty slammed until Sunday You might still say it sounds like I'm not reading between the lines, or not following the Holy Spirit, or trying to justify sin, but to me it feels like modern Christianity is over stepping its judgment of right and wrong. A bit of disclosure, apart of the reason I know so much about this is that I spend a decent amount of time over at the "Liberated Christians" forum trying to figure out a weakness in their arguments. I came to the conclusion that while they probably went way too far, they were also right about alot of things.
Pretty sure Song of Solomon was geared toward love between a husband and his bride. Many great examples can be taken from that book, but the context was sex within marriage.
You are a garden locked up, my sister, MY BRIDE; you are a spring enclosed, a sealed fountain
Songs of Solomon 4:10
Remember there are tons of scriptures in the bible that mention fleeing from fornication.
So if fornication is bad what other options do christians have to release sexual tension and satisfy their urges?
Masterbation. It's not a sin at all, the Bible never forbids it. There is a story about a man who spilled his seed that many Christians misinterpret, but it is actually referring to a man who God told to impregnate a woman but instead he chose to "pull out" right before ejaculation and "spill his seed" on the ground. He was only using the woman for sex and didn't want to take the responsibility that God gave him. Don't use pornography however, that's another form of fornication. Plus porn can cause psychological problems in some men, including addiction. Use your imagination instead.
Also wanted to mention that a couple can be married in spirit before they are married before by The State. The Government just gives you a piece of paper, only Marriage in the eyes of God between a Man and a Woman count. God has a soul mate for everyone, he never intended us for to be alone. That's unhealthy, God designed our bodies for sex, he designed our bodies and minds and souls to enjoy sex. Sex is not a sin, how people abuse sex can be however. Only within the confines of Marriage between Man and Wife is how God intends it to be.
And I say this as a former fornicator. I was a BIG womanizer before I came to Christ, now I am waiting for Marriage. Just have to meet my wife first, wherever she is I know God will send her to me (or me to her).
Last edited by West Coast Republican; 06-20-2014 at 10:32 PM..
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,870,306 times
Reputation: 4559
Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA
Please note the lexicons I used were both Biblical and non biblical, show it shows the common meanings to a Greek speaker. However if we sue the cross references in Scripture we find indications that Prostitution was not the issue.
ASV Matthew 5:32 but I say unto you, that every one that putteth away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, maketh her an adulteress: and whosoever shall marry her when she is put away committeth adultery.
This cannot be prostitution
ASV Acts 15:20 but that we write unto them, that they abstain from the pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from what is strangled, and from blood.
A broad statement that would include prostitution, but not be limited to it.
ASV 1 Corinthians 5:1 It is actually reported that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not even among the Gentiles, that one of you hath his father's wife.
Again not prostitution.
ASV 1 Corinthians 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
It could include it but is not limited to it.
While some verses can be seen to include the idea of prostitution, the broader meaning always includes sex outside of marriage.
Ignore the Latin as we know the Hebrew and Greek words. The word covers a broad range of meanings, but in everyone, even prostitution, we can't ignore that such includes sex outside of a marriage. Symbolically we can commit fornication against God, as we love something more then Him. Mix other worship with what is true, thus polluting our relationship with God. Conservative VS Liberal is really a side issue.
The idea of Harlotry can be seen in the Hebrew but again a person having sex with a prostitute or harlot is having sex outside of marriage.
I will be interested in what you find, but try to show it does not include sex outside marriage at all?
Yeah, the bible is obsessed with sex, isn't it?
Gotta luv Ezekiel 23:20
Quote:
For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses
Now, why was that necessary to add? Huh?
I mean, aren't we getting just a little bit carried away with the hyperbole here?
You would have thought the writer spent too much time in Tijuana strip joints in his youth.
Hello everyone. I have read this whole thread and have found it very informative.
I've been a Christian all my life and as my username suggests, I'm 44 years old and never been married and still a virgin. I've always believed that sex before marriage was wrong because that's what was taught to me at church and they also said that it was in the bible. And because I was young, I believed it cause I trusted my pastor and my parents. I knew that I wanted to save myself for my husband and it was only because of that "law" that I was taught. But now being 44 and still a virgin, I struggle with my sexuality and my very strong desires to have not just oral sex but intercourse. I'm scared to death that I'm never going to be married and enjoy it with my husband and I don't want to die a virgin. I want to experience it. But reading this thread and everyones opinion about sex and premarital sex and what it says and doesn't say in the bible has been very eye opening and has made me really think about what I was taught as a teenager and why I believe it now. I've seen many christians have sex before marriage and have always thought it was wrong. One of them was my younger brother. He was living with his girlfriend before they got married and I'm pretty sure they were having sex. I have no idea of how his relationship with God was or is now since that happened but he grew up with the same values and morals as me. So any advice, comments, suggestions would help. I realize that this might be the wrong forum or thread to post this in, but it seems to be something that I've been debating for a long time and was right up my alley. Thanks for letting me vent.
Hello everyone. I have read this whole thread and have found it very informative.
I've been a Christian all my life and as my username suggests, I'm 44 years old and never been married and still a virgin. I've always believed that sex before marriage was wrong because that's what was taught to me at church and they also said that it was in the bible. And because I was young, I believed it cause I trusted my pastor and my parents. I knew that I wanted to save myself for my husband and it was only because of that "law" that I was taught. But now being 44 and still a virgin, I struggle with my sexuality and my very strong desires to have not just oral sex but intercourse. I'm scared to death that I'm never going to be married and enjoy it with my husband and I don't want to die a virgin. I want to experience it. But reading this thread and everyones opinion about sex and premarital sex and what it says and doesn't say in the bible has been very eye opening and has made me really think about what I was taught as a teenager and why I believe it now. I've seen many christians have sex before marriage and have always thought it was wrong. One of them was my younger brother. He was living with his girlfriend before they got married and I'm pretty sure they were having sex. I have no idea of how his relationship with God was or is now since that happened but he grew up with the same values and morals as me. So any advice, comments, suggestions would help. I realize that this might be the wrong forum or thread to post this in, but it seems to be something that I've been debating for a long time and was right up my alley. Thanks for letting me vent.
You need to think for yourself and do what's best for you. Religion is man-made and often used to control people. You're an adult and capable of making your own responsible decisions.
First of all, it is very brave of you to post such a personal struggle in a public forum. Even though there is anonymity, it can still be very trying and stressful.
The first thing I would ask is that you truly have a defining understanding of your relationship with God. I'm not talking about rules, or laws, or church but your personal relationship with God, because it is through your relationship with God that your actions find meaning.
Let me give you an example. I love my wife and I would never be unfaithful to her. While God tells us that infidelity is wrong, that is not the reason why I refrain from it. It is because I love my wife and would not disrespect her or hurt her feelings. It is also true with God, who is our spiritual bride through Christ, that we do not do that which hurts Him or drives a wedge into our relationship.
I love God with all my heart and there is nothing I would not do for Him, nothing I would not sacrifice, including my life. This is because of what He did for me on the cross. That solitary action is so amazing, so selfless, so loving that I still cannot comprehend it to this day.
So I refrain from sin, not because I have to, or I am compelled to, but because I want to. I desire to be with God, to walk with Him and one day to hear the words, 'Well done, my good and faithful servant.'
So how does this relate to your specific issue? Well, God tells you personally that He loves you and desires the best for you. If you haven't found a person with which to marry, there is a reason and it is up to you to trust God that He has a plan for you, even though you might not see it clearly yet. However, we know that there is blessing in overcoming our temptations and that God has promised you that He will never allow you to be tempted more than you can bear. You can bear it through the power of God.
God desires you to be free from sin, which means keeping yourself a holy testimony for God, blameless in your sexuality.
I know it is difficult, but I want you to know that Jesus understand temptation and is willing to walk with you through it and that in the end He is waiting with open arms to recieve you. So take heart! Focus on your relationship with God and getting to know Him personally and you will find your identity as a duaghter of Christ and that will bring you hapiness and fulfillment, according to God's promises. I will be praying for you as well.
That's all easy for you to say JJ_Maxx... you're married and have had everything that goes along with a relationship and getting married. As a 44 year old single christian, not as easy!!
the only way to be celibate successfully - is to not stir those feelings up. Just like not drinking pop for 2 weeks removes the taste for pop, same with any other habit. seems like if you lay that aside, your body adapts, and it doesn't seek it. UNTIL the day that gets stimulated by whatever stimulates you. So to resolve that, you dont go there.
The Bible says flee fornication, so even the writer there knew you pretty much have to run from it because it is so enticing.
to be able to be celibate needs grace from God to do so. If you feel you wish to be celibate, God will give you the ability to.
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,870,306 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 44Yearoldvirgin
Hello everyone. I have read this whole thread and have found it very informative.
I've been a Christian all my life and as my username suggests, I'm 44 years old and never been married and still a virgin. I've always believed that sex before marriage was wrong because that's what was taught to me at church and they also said that it was in the bible. And because I was young, I believed it cause I trusted my pastor and my parents. I knew that I wanted to save myself for my husband and it was only because of that "law" that I was taught. But now being 44 and still a virgin, I struggle with my sexuality and my very strong desires to have not just oral sex but intercourse. I'm scared to death that I'm never going to be married and enjoy it with my husband and I don't want to die a virgin. I want to experience it. But reading this thread and everyones opinion about sex and premarital sex and what it says and doesn't say in the bible has been very eye opening and has made me really think about what I was taught as a teenager and why I believe it now. I've seen many christians have sex before marriage and have always thought it was wrong. One of them was my younger brother. He was living with his girlfriend before they got married and I'm pretty sure they were having sex. I have no idea of how his relationship with God was or is now since that happened but he grew up with the same values and morals as me. So any advice, comments, suggestions would help. I realize that this might be the wrong forum or thread to post this in, but it seems to be something that I've been debating for a long time and was right up my alley. Thanks for letting me vent.
Greetings, and what courage to put your situation out here for public dissection. My comments are made as an atheist, but please don't let that affect your decisions, as I will try and give you biblical references.
First of all, although there is plenty in the bible about sexual immorality, none, either in the OT or NT refer to premarital sex. A good discussion on this issue is here:
I'm not aware that any of the gospels discuss the issue, the only references others may draw your attention to are writings of Paul. Paul was as misogynistic as it gets, so even though it is part of the NT, his words are not the gospel words. They are mostly letters and instructions to various sects and churches in the ME.
In the OT, look at the story of in Ruth, where Naomi sends Ruth out to seduce Boaz. In the end, when Boaz gets permission from the one Ruth was promised to, they get married.
One might think about it this way. Your god, from your perspective, designed man and women to have sexual desires and to act on those desires. Why would that god do so, and not then restrict the sexual union to a marriage?
I wish you luck in your contemplation, and fully understand your conflict. You are going to have to meet a very special man, one who understands your situation, that you ARE a virgin and that sex with you is not like what he would be used to from a 40plus old women. Consider if you do meet that special man, that your relationship may well end up in a long term relationship which may include marriage.
I'm celibate, but don't want to be. I am likely not going to marry. My sex drive makes me depressed. I go back and forth between wanting a relationship and wanting to have sex with anything. I've prayed for years for God to take this drive away. Now, I'm debating about going on antidepressants to kill this drive. I tried them before and wasn't able to enjoy sex. I would love just once for married church women to acknowledge that this is hard for me and not laugh that I'm single like it's a game. I get it, they are blessed and I'm not. I still have to live with this daily.
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You might still say it sounds like I'm not reading between the lines, or not following the Holy Spirit, or trying to justify sin, but to me it feels like modern Christianity is over stepping its judgment of right and wrong. A bit of disclosure, apart of the reason I know so much about this is that I spend a decent amount of time over at the "Liberated Christians" forum trying to figure out a weakness in their arguments. I came to the conclusion that while they probably went way too far, they were also right about alot of things.
