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Old 12-08-2007, 10:38 AM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,618,556 times
Reputation: 1323

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Quote:
If God forgives everything and agape love is not always accepting, then why make a difference between good and bad if in the end everyone will be forgiven and no one will be refused (to enter heaven)?
To me it seems that you're saying that actions have no consequences, because in the end God forgives all.
If my assumption is correct, I just don't see the need for a morality.
On earth as in heaven
Hi Tricky D., as a Universalist Christian, I believe that God is in the process of teaching us all about the difference between good and evil, right and wrong. Agape love is not accepting of sin, but it does what is best for the sinner. I believe that all sinners will learn the difference between right and wrong, good and evil, and will choose right and good in the end. This will be done by the work of God. This doesn't mean that there are no consequences to sin. I have never said that I don't believe that people will experience hell or the wrath of God, or judgment. I believe that hell, God's wrath, punishment, judgment all have a higher purpose. If God eventually convinces all of their need for a Savior just as He has convinced Christians today of of the destructiveness of sin and of their need for Him, does this mean that there is no need for morality? Just because someone believes that eventually all will do right, does this mean that this person should not do right today? Should I just stop doing the right thing because all will eventually see the truth and be obedient to the truth? I believe that it is because of God's love, justice, grace, mercy, and work that any of us have any hope. God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 12-08-2007 at 10:57 AM.. Reason: typos
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Old 12-08-2007, 11:07 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,561 posts, read 14,331,969 times
Reputation: 1573
Quote:
If God eventually convinces all of their need for a Savior just as He has convinced Christians today of of the destructiveness of sin and of their need for Him, does this mean that there is no need for morality?
This is exactly my point; neither Jesus nor God can save me, because love cannot force someone to be good.
People have to want to be good themselves.
Not be forced by some outside influence.

Even if it was possible for God to snap his finger and proclaim that from hence forth all evil will be banished, God will not only have banished evil but also choice and thus free will. I know that you do not find the loss of free will a tragic thing, but without free will there is no difference between a man and an automaton.

But I agree that we'll continue to disagree on this matter.
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Old 12-08-2007, 11:28 AM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,618,556 times
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Quote:
Quote:
If God eventually convinces all of their need for a Savior just as He has convinced Christians today of of the destructiveness of sin and of their need for Him, does this mean that there is no need for morality?
This is exactly my point; neither Jesus nor God can save me, because love cannot force someone to be good.
People have to want to be good themselves.
Not be forced by some outside influence.

Yes, this is where we definitely disagree. I believe that all is entirely the work of God and that He works all things according to the counsel of His will (Eph. 1) Even the desire to want to do good, I believe is the work of God from whom all things come. (Romans 11:36)

Quote:
Even if it was possible for God to snap his finger and proclaim that from hence forth all evil will be banished, God will not only have banished evil but also choice and thus free will. I know that you do not find the loss of free will a tragic thing, but without free will there is no difference between a man and an automaton.
Yes, here we disagree again. How can we have free will if God works all things according to His will? There is a direct contradiction here to me. If our wills were truly free there would no restrictions or anything that would influence our wills. There are many things that have restrictions on our wills, Tricky D. We did not choose our parents, the time of our birth, our ethnicity, the social status into which we are born, and we cannot stop the day of our deaths, for example. If we jump off of a building we will fall despite any will that we may have to not do so. So this tells me that we do not have free will. I do believe that we have will to choose and that yes, God gives us the ability to choose, but I do believe that something always influences the choices that we make. God bless.
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Old 12-08-2007, 11:37 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,561 posts, read 14,331,969 times
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Quote:
I do believe that we have will to choose and that yes, God gives us the ability to choose, but I do believe that something always influences the choices that we make.
Of course you will always be influenced; I mean if your choice had no affect (influence) on the outcome of your decision there would be no reason to choose.

Quote:
If we jump off of a building we will fall despite any will that we may have to not do so.
Jumping of a bridge because you will yourself to fly is not an example of free will, but more an example of stupidity.
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Old 12-08-2007, 11:42 AM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,618,556 times
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Quote:
Quote:
I do believe that we have will to choose and that yes, God gives us the ability to choose, but I do believe that something always influences the choices that we make.
Of course you will always be influenced; I mean if your choice had no affect (influence) on the outcome of your decision there would be no reason to choose.
Does anything influence the choices that you make, Tricky D.?


Quote:
If we jump off of a building we will fall despite any will that we may have to not do so.
Quote:
Jumping of a bridge because you will yourself to fly is not an example of free will, but more an example of stupidity.

I agree, that it is an example of stupidity unless you might be a little child who doesn't know better, or someone who might be mentally unstable. The point is there are many things that we are unable to do even though we may will to do it. God bless.
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Old 12-08-2007, 11:52 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,561 posts, read 14,331,969 times
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Quote:
Does anything influence the choices that you make, Tricky D.?
Yes, I try to take as much into account when I make a decision.
So, I try to be as conscious of my choices as possible. And because I always try to predict the outcome of my actions, I have learned a lot about myself.
Only when I am 'forced' to react fast (like when I'm sporting), do I act on instinct alone.

Quote:
The point is there are many things that we are unable to do even though we may will to do it. God bless.
This is more about freedom than about choice.
We are not free from the consequences of our choices, but we are free to make our own choices.
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Old 12-08-2007, 12:06 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,618,556 times
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Quote:
Yes, I try to take as much into account when I make a decision.
So, I try to be as conscious of my choices as possible. And because I always try to predict the outcome of my actions, I have learned a lot about myself.
Only when I am 'forced' to react fast (like when I'm sporting), do I act on instinct alone
.

So, you would agree that something influences the choices that you make? Just asking.


Quote:

The point is there are many things that we are unable to do even though we may will to do it. God bless.
This is more about freedom than about choice.

We are not free from the consequences of our choices, but we are free to make our own choices.
I never said that we weren't free to make choices, but I don't believe that we have free will. This is why I asked you in an earlier post what you meant by free will. I believe that free will means that there is nothing that influences the choices that we make and that there are no restrictions placed on our wills or on what we may will to do. And as a Christian, I believe that if God works all things according to the counsel of His will, Someone's will is sovereign over mine. God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 12-08-2007 at 12:27 PM.. Reason: fixing quotes
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Old 12-08-2007, 12:29 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,561 posts, read 14,331,969 times
Reputation: 1573
Quote:
So, you would agree that something influences the choices that you make? Just asking.
I am influenced by what I see and know, but beyond that?
I don't think so.
I mean if I see someone unconsciously sprawled on the floor I obviously want to help, so I'm influenced by what I see. But my decision to aid is not influenced by an outside force.

Quote:
I believe that free will means that there is nothing that influences the choices that we make and that there are no restrictions placed on what we may will to do.
What you describe here is what I call total freedom.
I am not free from the consequences of my actions so I never will experience total freedom, but I am free to make the decision.

For example: I know that the unconscious person is probably wounded. I could choose to help or I could choose to flee because I might be in danger. I know that if I flee I would always consider myself a coward for not helping someone in need. And helping the person could put my life at risk. The choice is between fleeing and securing my own safety or helping and risking my safety. I choose to help, because fleeing makes me a coward and I do not like to see myself as a coward.
Even though I prefer one choice over another I am still free to choice.
So I have free choice even when I am not free of the decision of my action; I could flee and not risk my life, but would know for the rest of my life that I am a coward.
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Old 12-08-2007, 12:29 PM
 
336 posts, read 749,255 times
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Exclamation Who Is My Master?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
The more I hear this, the more I'm inclined to believe that Christians view God as their absolute master and humanity as slaves, where Christians are the uncle Toms*.
I mean to whom can slaves complain when they are being abused by their master? They simply can't so instead of losing all hope in life they rationalise the abuse with the thought that their abuse is justified; that their master can only be righteous.
It seems obvious to me that this Christian 'slave' mentality makes it easier for people to fall victim to the Stockholm syndrome**.
I WOULD RATHER BE A SLAVE TO HIM ,THAN A SLAVE TO SIN...
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Old 12-08-2007, 12:31 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,561 posts, read 14,331,969 times
Reputation: 1573
Quote:
I WOULD RATHER BE A SLAVE TO HIM ,THAN A SLAVE TO SIN...
Since God granted you free will you cannot be a slave.
Unless you choose to give up your free will, or deceive yourself into believing that you do not have a free will.
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