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Old 12-09-2007, 03:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
I am not attacking any one. Being influenced and being brainwashed are to different things. Now, if I claimed that a Christian is being brainwashed then I'd say you would be right for accusing me of attacking.
The problem with Christians is that they cannot see that I am influenced by Jesus also. The thing is that because my opinions differ from other Christians you will probably not see this.
Or deny that outright.

The way I see it is that God has no style.
So people who claim that they only want Godís style are saying that they believe that their style is the same as Godís style.
But even the Jews already came to the conclusion that every Jew would see God differently; this is the main reason they chose never to depict God.
Depicting God can only be through a personal interpretation, and God is too grand for a personal interpretation.
hi Tricky,
Everyone has their opinion concerning the bible and God,including you. So to use your analogy, you are a painter as well with certain painters influencing you. Whether we admit it or not,we are all influenced by others,including you and your beliefs. They are just that... your opinion,,that was shaped by others. Same for me. No one has totally free thought that has not been influenced by someone else. But getting back on track..you say that God is love. However, you say that God cannot change you but love can. To me,that is a contradiction. If love comes from God,and you admit that love can change you,then isn`t God doing the changing? I don`t think love comes from satan,so it must be God. But somehow you believe that this same loving God who will not or can not change you, will lovingly create a universe and human beings only to allow them to be thrown in a lake of fire to suffer torment eternally or to be totally destroyed. That doesn`t sound like love to me. Let me ask you this, if you wanted to have a child but you knew 100% that the child would be born with some terrible disease and only live a short life. That during that short life,she would suffer horribly and never experiencing true happiness and then suffer an excruciating death,would you still desire that child to be born. If you would then that would be a selfish kind of love to me. But that is how a lot of people think about God. God is not forcing himself on people. He is revealing himself to them inspite of themselves. If you had a child that wanted to kill herself because she was so depressed and she put a gun to her head,would you not take the gun from her if you were able? Would you take the gun from her and show her how things would get better or would you say,well, it`s your life and because I love you so much I`m going to let you kill yourself. I don`t want to intervene or force myself on you so go ahead. I don`t think you would. I think you would take the gun and show her a better way and help her to understand that she is loved and that you are there for her. That is how I perceive God. He is not forcing himself on us but showing us through love and correction the way to true love and happiness,though left to ourselves we would never find it.
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Old 12-09-2007, 03:40 PM
 
Location: NC
11,621 posts, read 9,017,193 times
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Quote:
So people who claim that they only want God’s style are saying that they believe that their style is the same as God’s style.
Hi Tricky D., Christians are to have the mind of Christ, so this tells me that we are to think a certain way, walk a certain way, and this involves listening to and living by what He has revealed in His word. God is at work within us to work and will for His good pleasure. Anyone could come up and claim to have a revelation from God or say that their interpretation is the right interpretation but the thing is, the Christian scriptures record that Jesus is the revelation of God. He is the exact image of the Father and He is the word made flesh. The word made flesh has his spoken words recorded in the Christian scriptures. The word- I must listen to the word, Tricky D. I may not understand all right now, but I am trusting in God to lead me in this understanding. Saying that one's goal is to have the style of God is saying that this is what I am striving for with the help of God.

"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth." John 1:14

"for the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of the soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart." Hebrews 3:12

God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 12-09-2007 at 04:04 PM..
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Old 12-09-2007, 03:47 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,532 posts, read 10,516,744 times
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Quote:
They are just that... your opinion,,that was shaped by others.
True, but unlike Christians I do not force my opinions upon others. Nor do I claim to have the truth.
And as long as they do no harm, I do not mind that others have a totally different opinion as mine.
Quote:
If love comes from God,and you admit that love can change you,then isn`t God doing the changing?
No, love can only be love if the motivation to change is intrinsic. Many people claim that love will change everything, which simply is not true.
Love can only change you if you allow it to change you.
If you do not wish to change then love will not change you.

Quote:
But somehow you believe that this same loving God who will not or can not change you, will lovingly create a universe and human beings only to allow them to be thrown in a lake of fire to suffer torment eternally or to be totally destroyed.
No, I do not believe in Satan. Satan only represents our ego.
Man is stupid enough to let himself to only be ruled by his wants instead of his needs.

Quote:
If you had a child that wanted to kill herself because she was so depressed and she put a gun to her head,would you not take the gun from her if you were able?
That depends on how mature the child is. I cannot force someone to want to live. Telling my child that it only should choose life for me is egoistic and not loving at all. The choice between life and death is the only free choice an individual has.
I find it inhumane and torture to keep someone alive who obviously wants to die.
I believe that the following saying is true:
If you love them, you'll set them free.

Quote:
Would you take the gun from her and show her how things would get better or would you say,well, it`s your life and because I love you so much I`m going to let you kill yourself.
Again, it depends on how mature she is. But because I cannot force her to want to live if she doesn't want to, I would let her be responsible for her own actions. It is HER life not mine.

Quote:
He is not forcing himself on us but showing us through love and correction the way to true love and happiness,though left to ourselves we would never find it.
Unfortunately there are people who suffer from a manic depression, or a clinical depression, or who suffered from such a traumatic experience that life has become nothing but sheer torture.
I will not keep these people alive because I as an individual am not willing to accept 'defeat'.
Sometimes love is to know when to let go.
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Old 12-09-2007, 03:53 PM
 
Location: NC
11,621 posts, read 9,017,193 times
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Quote:
True, but unlike Christians I do not force my opinions upon others.
Who is forcing their opinion upon others, Tricky D.? If you believe in free will, then you believe that one is able to accept or reject, right? Most of the posts that I have read here by Christians have been very respectful of differing views. We may not agree with someone and even among ourselves on some teaching, for example, but disagreeing and sharing the reasons for disagreeing or for having a belief with someone does not mean that someone is forcing themselves upon anyone. Sharing scriptures is not forcing something upon someone. They can read or choose not to read. Now, on the other hand, I do believe that God will eventually have His way with everyone in the end. Here, I am sharing a belief and I give the reasons for this belief. You don't have to accept it or say that it is being forced upon you. But you if you ask me a question, I will respond and give the reasons for this response. God bless

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 12-09-2007 at 04:32 PM..
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Old 12-09-2007, 05:56 PM
 
2,942 posts, read 3,217,552 times
Reputation: 1551
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
True, but unlike Christians I do not force my opinions upon others. Nor do I claim to have the truth.
And as long as they do no harm, I do not mind that others have a totally different opinion as mine.
No, love can only be love if the motivation to change is intrinsic. Many people claim that love will change everything, which simply is not true.
Love can only change you if you allow it to change you.
If you do not wish to change then love will not change you.

No, I do not believe in Satan. Satan only represents our ego.
Man is stupid enough to let himself to only be ruled by his wants instead of his needs.

That depends on how mature the child is. I cannot force someone to want to live. Telling my child that it only should choose life for me is egoistic and not loving at all. The choice between life and death is the only free choice an individual has.
I find it inhumane and torture to keep someone alive who obviously wants to die.
I believe that the following saying is true:
If you love them, you'll set them free.

Again, it depends on how mature she is. But because I cannot force her to want to live if she doesn't want to, I would let her be responsible for her own actions. It is HER life not mine.

Unfortunately there are people who suffer from a manic depression, or a clinical depression, or who suffered from such a traumatic experience that life has become nothing but sheer torture.
I will not keep these people alive because I as an individual am not willing to accept 'defeat'.
Sometimes love is to know when to let go.
Hi Tricky,
You seem to continually contradict yourself..imo. You talk about a God of love not forcing himself on you and it`s not love to allow someone to live who is suffering. But on the other hand this God of love allows it. This God of love creates humanity knowing most will suffer and die. I wonder why that is? Is that love? Is God showing love by doing this? By your definition,the answer is no. But you still call him a God of love..hmm.
I don`t think christians are forcing their beliefs you. No offense, but you sound extemely defensive when you make generalizations. It sounds as if you may have had a bad experience. Sometimes bad experiences can cause someone to make generalizations about a certain group of people and have a closed mind. I would never try to force you to believe anything or accept my opinion. I always try to add that my belief is my opinion. A lot of things in the bible are open to ones interpretation to a certain degree. Other things are pretty crystal clear and not based on intepretation. Based on some of the things you have stated it is my understanding that you do not believe the bible to be totally true. So I am bowing out of the thread. My beliefs are based on certain truths that are spilled out and the rest on my interpretation of other scripture. But a discussion on this topic has to come from a certain mutual point and to me ,that is certain biblical truths that are clearly spilled out. To discuss biblical truth or the bible is another thread entirely. Perhaps I will see you on another thread. Shalom
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Old 12-09-2007, 08:27 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,532 posts, read 10,516,744 times
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Originally Posted by Shana Brown
Quote:
Who is forcing their opinion upon others, Tricky D.? If you believe in free will, then you believe that one is able to accept or reject, right?
In the middle ages not being a Christian usually meant death.
As a non-Christian you'd eventually be accused of being a witch or devil-worshipper.
In those times free will or autonomy and freedom of religion was not a basic human right guaranteed by the government.

Modern Christians take for granted how Christianity became the #1 religion, which namely is through conquering other nations and converting the heathen.
In my opinion Christianity is a type A(ggresive) religion and Animism for example is a type B(enevolent) religion.
Type A religions aggressively convert others, because they believe that the earth will be saved when everyone is of the same religion.
They believe that the fallen state of man is natural and death is unnatural.
Type B religions believe that the earth already is perfect, that man is not a born sinner and death is only natural.
They see no reason to convert others to their faith.

In colonies the 'converted' natives were favoured over the non-Christians.
For example in America the Native Americans were forced to speak English and drop their 'heathen' ways. Everything possible was done to wipe out their knowledge of their original culture. They were even renamed and 'given' Christian names.

Originally Posted by spm62
Quote:
You seem to continually contradict yourself..imo. You talk about a God of love not forcing himself on you and it`s not love to allow someone to live who is suffering. But on the other hand this God of love allows it. This God of love creates humanity knowing most will suffer and die. I wonder why that is? Is that love? Is God showing love by doing this? By your definition,the answer is no. But you still call him a God of love..hmm.
No, by my definition this is love, but by your definition it would not be love.
To me to live= to suffer, and death is only natural.
To a Christian death can only be unnatural, because no one suffered in the Garden of Eden and God cursed the earth by allowing death to happen, because Adam & Eve made a mistake.
I do not call cursing all the earth because of 1 mistake an act of love.
To me raping and lying are not in the same scale, unfortunately the Christian God thinks otherwise.

Quote:
No offense, but you sound extemely defensive when you make generalizations. It sounds as if you may have had a bad experience.
True, I would call that bad experience my family. I see no difference between witnessing by family to family and Christians forcefully converting the heathen. Both the family and the Christian believe that they are doing it for the greater good.

Quote:
My beliefs are based on certain truths that are spilled out and the rest on my interpretation of other scripture. But a discussion on this topic has to come from a certain mutual point and to me ,that is certain biblical truths that are clearly spilled out. To discuss biblical truth or the bible is another thread entirely. Perhaps I will see you on another thread. Shalom
I never saw the logic in preaching to the choir.
Why discuss things with people who already agree with you on a fundamental level?
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Old 12-09-2007, 08:50 PM
 
Location: NC
11,621 posts, read 9,017,193 times
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Quote:
Who is forcing their opinion upon others, Tricky D.? If you believe in free will, then you believe that one is able to accept or reject, right? In the middle ages not being a Christian usually meant death.
As a non-Christian you'd eventually be accused of being a witch or devil-worshipper.
In those times free will or autonomy and freedom of religion was not a basic human right guaranteed by the government.

Modern Christians take for granted how Christianity became the #1 religion, which namely is through conquering other nations and converting the heathen.
Yes, that happened in the past, Tricky D. and Christianity is not the only religion that has been guilty of trying to force a religion onto people. Your statement was a generalization indicating that you believe that all Christians are forcing their opinions upon people, which isn't what is happening. And if you believe that one has free will, no one can force that person to accept an opinion or belief. God bless.
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Old 12-10-2007, 01:14 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,532 posts, read 10,516,744 times
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Quote:
And if you believe that one has free will, no one can force that person to accept an opinion or belief.
Only if you are a grown-up.
Many children are 'forced' to follow their parents so they do not get another option.
To me this is downright indoctrination.

Quote:
Your statement was a generalization indicating that you believe that all Christians are forcing their opinions upon people, which isn't what is happening.
Many Christian parents force their beliefs upon their children.
Or are you suggesting that children got a free choice in this matter?
Most of the time the parents use the (heavenly) father knows best argument.
Many Christian parents don't like it when their children do not turn out to be like them. They often can't handle it when it turns out that their child is homosexual or has decided to break with religion or follow another religious belief.
Anywayz, Christians often ignore the past because of their ugly role in it. Denying the past is the same as not wanting to learn from your mistakes.
Witnessing using emotional pressure or converting through physical force or the promise of economical wealth, I still do not see the difference.
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Old 12-10-2007, 09:13 AM
 
3,086 posts, read 4,039,999 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
In the middle ages not being a Christian usually meant death.
As a non-Christian you'd eventually be accused of being a witch or devil-worshipper.
No, it was the other way around. People that were putting others to death were Christians only in name, not in reality. In fact, millions of Christians (followers of Christ) were put to death along with the "witches" or "devil-worshippers", actually being identified with them.
Quote:
In those times free will or autonomy and freedom of religion was not a basic human right guaranteed by the government.
When "church" gets mixed up with government, this can often be the case.

Quote:
Modern Christians take for granted how Christianity became the #1 religion, which namely is through conquering other nations and converting the heathen.
"Christianity" maybe. Christianity, no. Christianity will never be the #1 religion.
Quote:
In my opinion Christianity is a type A(ggresive) religion and Animism for example is a type B(enevolent) religion.
Christianity is a benevolent religion.. but if you're trying to be a Christian without following Christ, thus in name only, you are a walking contradiction. (If you were an environmentalist in name only, would you have any positive impact on the environment? Would you convince people to stop polluting?)

Likewise, as I have mentioned to you before (I think), the term "Christian" was given by non-Christians to people who were obviously and unmistakenly following Christ. If you look at history, you will have to apply this same test to everyone in order to get rid of the contradictions.

And to get back to the OP () we can't be images of Christ without God's grace covering us... so the fruits of everyone (past and present) will always show what they (and we) are... and if God's grace was present.
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Old 12-10-2007, 09:17 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,532 posts, read 10,516,744 times
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Quote:
And to get back to the OP () we can't be images of Christ without God's grace covering us...
This is what makes you a Christian and I'll only be a follower of Jesus.
I only try to be like Jesus (= before his resurrection) and not like Christ (=after his resurrection).
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