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Old 01-17-2008, 07:25 PM
 
Location: Missouri
250 posts, read 502,180 times
Reputation: 53

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
Zimbabwe: I am not offended! I was refreshed to see someone actually spell it out.

Preterist
You fooled me. Go back and read your post. I thought it was laced with sarcasm. Perhaps it was just your typical passion.

Anyway, I thought his explanation was good too. Coolcats succinctly honed in on a definitional problem that kept us from communicating.

 
Old 01-17-2008, 08:27 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,482,756 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by MomtoFour View Post
Honestly, I don't know of anyone who enjoys being told that their religion is wrong or incomplete or not as good as someone else's.

Non-Mormon Christians are offended when Mormons say they have "limited light because [their] interpretation is clouded by the apostate changes to pure doctrines."

Mormons are offended when Non-Mormon Christians say "the Jesus of Mormonism is NOT the Jesus of Christianity."

And I can see that, because both statements are offensive.

This is why I tend to lean towards a "many paths up the mountain" theology. I think the "my church is the only true church" belief (or even the "my church is the truest" belief) brings out the worst in humans in general and that people are much closer to God when they can acknowledge that someone else's religious experience can be *just* as valid and *just* as saving as their own.
MomtoFour: Your are absolutely right. It is our misunderstanding of the "church" that causes the problem. It is perhaps more correct for us to speak of denominations rather than churches because the true church is NOT a building or a human organization but is made up of the bride of Christ--all those born again by the grace of God through faith in Jesus, the God-Man of clearly defined in the Bible. It is the existence of denominations created by the teachings of men and not the Bible that opened the door in the first place for such Joseph Smith to seize the opportunity to point his finger and claim that all were apostate and accursed.

I belong to no denomination and have no manmade church affiliation. I have in the past and have always been disappointed by the inevitable creeping in of the doctrines of men.

We are not saved by experiences and we are not saved by "church" affiliations. We are saved by the grace of God alone. What is our standard? Is it wrong to have a standard? Is it not universally understood that two plus two equals four? That is an absolute. There are many absolutes upon which we exist that are nonnegotiable. H20 is always water, for example.

IF I believe (and I do) that the Bible is God's very Word and it is infallible and IF within its pages God makes it clear that there is only one way into His presence--through the new birth which He Himself creates in those whom He chooses, then there are not many paths up the mountain. And if I believe that there is only one way, as the Bible declares, then it must be my mission, motivated by love and concern for my fellow man, to share that with those who do not know the way. I am not saying anyone should agree with me. I am simply saying that our beliefs often do and should dictate our actions. IF one believes that those outside of Christ are lost, THEN he is compelled to share the message of salvation. It is the same motivation many would have to warn someone driving down a road upon which a bridge is washed out.

Some hate me and accuse me of being judgmental and intolerant (not on this board but in my everyday life). For the greater good, I accept that. Jesus told His disciples not to marvel that men hated them because they first hated Him! When it comes to spiritual matters, most people abhor absolutes. Man wants to find God on his own terms and not on God's.

Here is the difference (and I'm ready for all of the fallout)--Those who know the love of God because of His grace that saved them from their wretchedness seek to be used of God to share that saving faith with others--not out of gaining a new church member but out of the desire to bring others to Christ to become a member of His body for His glory and for their salvation.

I tell Mormons that they are not Christians because I want them to BE true Christians. I tell Mormons they do not have the Jesus Christ of the Bible because I want them to HAVE the Jesus Christ of the Bible--for their salvation. It was the love of someone else for me (and perhaps many unknown prayers from others that I am unaware of) who shared the true Gospel message with me which God used to draw me to Himself and make me His child forever.

Again, this is not and should not be a matter of whose "church" is right or wrong but a matter of truth. We must all be continually seeking it and always questioning and scrutinizing and analyzing EVERYTHING people tell us lest we, thinking ourselves right, are proven wrong. Any "church" that does not encourage this type of scutiny openly and boldly is not worthy of my affiliation.

Preterist
 
Old 01-17-2008, 08:32 PM
 
Location: Bronx, NY
1,491 posts, read 3,108,252 times
Reputation: 734
Sorry, I was at worship practice and I got home late. I also have to get up early so I will sleep on some of these last posts and get back to you all tomorrow sometime. Sorry about that!! God bless all and rest well.
 
Old 01-17-2008, 08:51 PM
 
Location: Deep in the heart of Texas
1,914 posts, read 7,132,106 times
Reputation: 1988
All I know is that I have very dear friends of many different faiths, some Catholic, some Protestant, etc.All I know is that we love each other just as we are. They all know i converted to the LDS church and rejoiced in my acceptance of Christ as my Lord and
Savior. None of them judged me, or tried to discourage me. Not one. That is true LOVE my friends. Not one of them goes on message boards trying to disprove one church or the other. In fact both of my Catholic friends attended my sealing at the Temple (albeit they had to wait in the lobby) they didn't care..they showed up to support me and my family. It was literally the most wonderful day of my life!! Being in the Temple is a special place and a very holy place at that. I am particularly happy that I and my family was found worthy of entering the Lord's house. THings happened in that sealing room that solidified my testimony and my love of Jesus Christ. The Lord Jesus Christ I worship IS the LORD of Christianity.I don't care how any one else points it out or paints it, Jesus knows I love HIM and HE loves me. I can feel it every day. My friends, joined me and my fellow LDS members in a celebration party in our backyard where the LDS missionaries talked with everyone including my Catholic friends. No one was offended, no one was trying to convert anyone else. THAT is True love. And I don't care how many times I read that "your Jesus is not the same one as MY Jesus.." it simply isn't true. And TRUE Chrisitians wouldn't be in a message board trying to disprove someone elses beliefs. To each his own...I will be friends with atheists, muslims, catholics, anyone.....because I truly feel the love of Christ in my heart. That is what makes ME a Christian.
 
Old 01-17-2008, 09:04 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,482,756 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by zimbabwe View Post
I think that you are right about people being offended at that. But we do not condemn others to hell for not accepting the LDS church. There are so many wonderful christians in this country. Our society would not survive without their influence.
Zimbabwe: That is the difference. No man or organization condemns anyone to hell--God's judgment against sin does that.

We are not judged by what "church" we accept or don't accept. We are judged by what we do with the Lord Jesus Christ. It is the true Gospel that offends because in it we see the admonition to "enter by the NARROW gate; for wide is the gate and BROAD is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who who go in by it. Because NARROW is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it" (Matt. 7:13).

Jesus said to Pontius Pilate: "'I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.' Pilate said to Him, 'What is truth?'" (John 18:37, 38). Earlier Jesus had said to those Jews who believed in Him--"If you abide in My WORD, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. . . . If the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed" (John 8:31-35).

What is truth? And where is it found? In the teachings of Mormonism? In the various beliefs of the mainstream denominations? What is the authority for determining truth? Is it man according the Marxist-Leninist and secular humanist? Is it variable and individual based upon what each determines it to be as in cosmic humanism? Or is it based upon the immutable character of the God of the Bible Who is the same yesterday, today, and forever?

If truth is one thing for you and another thing for and still another thing for someone else, then it is not truth at all. Truth is not truth because people believe it to be truth. It is truth because it is truth--period.

For me all truths regarding spiritual matters are found in God's Word, the Bible, alone. And that is why I search the Scriptures daily to make sure I am understanding the truth and I judge everything anyone teaches me according to them.

Zimbabwe--I would be very willing to explain the biblical teaching concerning the Trinity. I only hesitated because you seemed to want merely a short statement or two. That is not possible.

Preterist
 
Old 01-17-2008, 09:27 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,482,756 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTR36 View Post
All I know is that I have very dear friends of many different faiths, some Catholic, some Protestant, etc.All I know is that we love each other just as we are. They all know i converted to the LDS church and rejoiced in my acceptance of Christ as my Lord and
Savior. None of them judged me, or tried to discourage me. Not one. That is true LOVE my friends. Not one of them goes on message boards trying to disprove one church or the other. In fact both of my Catholic friends attended my sealing at the Temple (albeit they had to wait in the lobby) they didn't care..they showed up to support me and my family. It was literally the most wonderful day of my life!! Being in the Temple is a special place and a very holy place at that. I am particularly happy that I and my family was found worthy of entering the Lord's house. THings happened in that sealing room that solidified my testimony and my love of Jesus Christ. The Lord Jesus Christ I worship IS the LORD of Christianity.I don't care how any one else points it out or paints it, Jesus knows I love HIM and HE loves me. I can feel it every day. My friends, joined me and my fellow LDS members in a celebration party in our backyard where the LDS missionaries talked with everyone including my Catholic friends. No one was offended, no one was trying to convert anyone else. THAT is True love. And I don't care how many times I read that "your Jesus is not the same one as MY Jesus.." it simply isn't true. And TRUE Chrisitians wouldn't be in a message board trying to disprove someone elses beliefs. To each his own...I will be friends with atheists, muslims, catholics, anyone.....because I truly feel the love of Christ in my heart. That is what makes ME a Christian.
CRT36: Who is the Jesus you love and worship? If He is not God of very God come in the flesh than He is not the Jesus of the Bible. Is he a spirit child conceived through Father God and his wife just as we all are according to Mormonism. Why don't you tell us more about your Jesus instead of simply saying "I believe in Jesus." What Jesus?

Are we his spirit siblings come from the same Father God? Is He merely a special "son" of God who came to this earth to lead a perfect life and die on the cross?

What is a TRUE Christian, CRT36? Is he merely someone who behaves in a certain way and obeys certain rules and regulations? If that is what you believe, than you are not believing in what the Bible says a Christian is. People do not make themselves Christians; God makes us His children through His grace and calling alone.

It is not enough for you to use biblical terms without explaining how you are using them. It is clear that we are using the same terms with different meanings, so it is very important that you explain how you are using them.

You seem to equate love with tolerance as though it never really matters if people have different views. It is easy for you to be tolerant because you do not see people outside of Christ as lost and in need of salvation. Correct me if I am wrong, but is it not your belief that all will eventually be saved?

For those of us who believe in the biblical truth that there is no salvation apart from faith in the God-Man, Jesus Christ, true love involves telling people what they need to hear and not what they want to hear--for their own good. You choose to call that unchristian. That is your prerogative. The Bible, however, makes it very clear that the preaching of the true Gospel is offensive to those who will not receive it.

Does that mean that I cannot be and am not "friends" with unsaved people? Of course not. But I do not shrink back from telling them of the love of Christ and their need for salvation because I do not believe that all will be saved. I believe, according to the Bible, that there is an eternal place of torment for those who will not come to Him. Understanding that I believe as I do, why would you find it surprising that I act upon that belief by sharing the words of life with those who are lost?

Again, would you please describe your Jesus to us so that people can determine whether he is the Jesus of the Bible or merely a creation of Mormon doctrine.

Preterist
 
Old 01-17-2008, 09:42 PM
 
Location: Missouri
250 posts, read 502,180 times
Reputation: 53
Thank you CTR36. I appreciate your thoughts and agree completely. Preterist, I appreciate your determination and passion in what you believe. But I do not accept your interpretation of the Bible-- your private interpretation I should add.
 
Old 01-17-2008, 09:48 PM
 
Location: Missouri
250 posts, read 502,180 times
Reputation: 53
P-

If you won't share with me your definition of the "tri-unity", perhaps you will share with me and the rest of the people on this thread a brief description of the destiny of man as you understand it from your study of the Bible and I will return and contrast it with Mormon theology (and with scripture), in so far as I understand it.

Fair enough?
 
Old 01-17-2008, 10:07 PM
 
1,821 posts, read 7,714,230 times
Reputation: 1044
Wow Preterist. Even though you said you weren't offended, I seem to have touched a nerve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
For many years Mormonism was blatantly and openly considered a cult by many within and outside of the Church.
Preterist
Please cite a reference where someone inside the LDS church considered the Church a cult. I know people like you call us a cult, but again, you have hijacked the term to twist it to fit your definition as a pejorative term.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
Coolcats has admitted something that many Mormons will not--because it is insulting and puts people off. Most Mormons I have met do all that they can to attempt to make themselves a part of Christianity and do not tell how their church really views us. Mitt Romney is a case in point. I wonder how far he would get in his race for the White House if he told those evangelicals whose votes he seeks what he really thinks about them and their faith.

Is your style "insulting" and does it "put people off?" Just a thought. But it is incorrect that we try to hide our teach of the Apostacy. Missionaries teach the concept of the apostacy early on to those investigating the Church. It is no secret. However, unlike you, we do not feel the need to point out every flaw or have a myopic focus on our disagreements with other Christian Churches. And we don't condemn others to hell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
Yet we are the ones attacking Mormonism! After over 1800 years, all churches were declared by the "prophet" Joseph Smith to be COMPLETELY wrong, lacking any semblance of truth whatsoever and accursed by God. How are we supposed to respond to such an assessment?
Are you really feigning that you aren't attacking the LDS Church? I am astounded.

We believe there is much good in other Churches of many types -- Christian and non-Christian. We believe there is Truth taught in many Churches. But yes, we do also believe there is some incorrect doctrine. Actually that isn't too far off from what you state you believe, but you seem to feel like you have the monopoloy on determining absolute Truth while others don't.
 
Old 01-18-2008, 07:59 AM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,482,756 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by zimbabwe View Post
You fooled me. Go back and read your post. I thought it was laced with sarcasm. Perhaps it was just your typical passion.

Anyway, I thought his explanation was good too. Coolcats succinctly honed in on a definitional problem that kept us from communicating.
Any sarcasm you think you detected was directed at Joseph Smith who I believe took an opportunity created by the Church's own lack of commitment to the truths of the Bible and deceived many.

Preterist
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