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The point I was trying to make is that most christians hold that man cannot look upon God Himself and live as per the verse in Exodus. That's all I was trying to say regarding the vision.
Regarding the quote in Exodus 33:20, God gives the privilege of seeing His face to certain righteous and holy men according to His own will. A good way of reading this verse is with the words "at this time" in mind, i.e. "Thou canst not see my face 'at thistime' for there shall no man see me and live", because it is known that even in verse 11 of the same chapter Moses spoke with the Lord "face to face as a man speaketh unto his friend".
You can't use one verse of scripture to the exclusion of other scriptures.
zimbabwe, as you know, this is a major point of contention and disagreement between christians and mormons. Because God is the same as He was yesterday, today and forever, why would He change and show Himself to Joseph Smith?
I know a lot of people maintain that it was His glory that Moses saw on the mount and that those were anthromorphic(?) manifestations of Himself that appeared to others in various sections of the Bible. God Himself stated in Exodus 33:20 that no one can see His face and live. So I guess the debate will rage on as a result of this and other aspects of the LDS doctrine.
I would hope that it is not an establish "fact" that nobody has ever seen God amongst Christians. This is one of those matters that seems to wander to and fro and keep contradicting itself. "God speaks to Moses face to face as one man speaketh to another", and yet "no man has seen God at any time." John the Revelator attempts to describe what God looks like. How could he have if he had never seen God to begin with? God is invisible, and yet the first martyr Stephen's experience:
"55. But being full of the Holy Spirit , he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God , and Jesus standing at the right hand of God ;
56. and he said , "Behold , I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God ."
Clearly Stephen saw well enough to recognize Jesus. Anyone who met Jesus during his mortal life would have also "seen God." The contrary nature of this debate goes on and on throughout the Bible. I think that the best that any Christian can say for certain is that he or she doesn't know for certain.
Did Joseph Smith see God the Father and Jesus Christ? In my opinion, no. Is it possible for somebody to have an experience in which he or she sees God the Father and Jesus Christ? I don't see why not. It seems to me that too many people definitely saw God at some point to take "No man hath seen God at any time" too literally.
It seems more likely that Exodus and other scriptures are getting at something else. Maybe that worldly men have never seen God at anytime?
Last edited by godofthunder; 01-28-2008 at 01:01 PM..
I would hope that it is not an establish "fact" that nobody has ever seen God amongst Christians. This is one of those matters that seems to wander to and fro and keep contradicting itself. "God speaks to Moses face to face as one man speaketh to another", and yet "no man has seen God at any time." John the Revelator attempts to describe what God looks like. How could he have if he had never seen God to begin with? God is invisible, and yet the first martyr Stephen's experience:
"55. But being full of the Holy Spirit , he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God , and Jesus standing at the right hand of God ;
56. and he said , "Behold , I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God ."
Clearly Stephen saw well enough to recognize Jesus. Anyone who met Jesus during his mortal life would have also "seen God." The contrary nature of this debate goes on and on.
I assume that everyone now knows what "Mormons really believe" regarding the godhead. Turning to the gospel of Christ, a great summary of the gospel can be found in the Book of Mormon, 27th chapter of 3 Nephi. This is the Lord's words to His disciples in the New World after His ressurection:
13 Behold I have given unto you my gospel, and this is the gospel which I have given unto you—that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me.
14 And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—
15 And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works.
16 And it shall come to pass, that whoso repenteth and is baptized in my name shall be filled; and if he endureth to the end, behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world.
17 And he that endureth not unto the end, the same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence they can no more return, because of the justice of the Father.
18 And this is the word which he hath given unto the children of men. And for this cause he fulfilleth the words which he hath given, and he lieth not, but fulfilleth all his words.
19 And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end.
20 Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.
21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;
22 Therefore, if ye do these things blessed are ye, for ye shall be lifted up at the last day
Turning to the gospel of Christ, a great summary of the gospel can be found in the Book of Mormon, 27th chapter of 3 Nephi. This is the Lord's words to His disciples in the New World after His ressurection:
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Originally Posted by zimbabwe
17 And he that endureth not unto the end, the same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence they can no more return, because of the justice of the Father.
I am a little confused....this verse seems to imply that those who do not endure to the end will go to hell. I was under the impression that the LDS church doesn't believe in hell. Am I incorrect, or do I simply not have all of the information regarding the LDS teaching on hell?
What will happen will happen to them eternally because this is God's predetermined destiny for them according to what you believe, right? It is the right thing for them. There is nothing that you can do to change their destiny and if they are predetermined and consigned to eternal hell, it is not for us to question God about it, right? Just trying to understand.
Quote:
Perhaps there is a difference here. We have a pretty good idea who is saved and who is not, for the most part. God however, knows already who will not make it and that is His and only His knowledge. Since we do not know, we are to go out and preach His Word regardless and leave the rest to Him. What do you think, does that make any sense?
Hi, I believe that believers should share the word of God with others and I believe that those elected to salvation in this age, may hear through the preaching and teaching of God's word. But I am wondering with a statement made earlier on another thread that suggested that Jesus is the possible Savior of all men by a Calvinist. How can this be if He only elects to save some? And if we really believe that some are deserving of eternal hell because this is God's will for them, why do we have a heart for them? And if someone is elected to salvation, are they really headed for eternal hell? Btw, I am a Christian Universalist and I believe that all will eventually be reconciled to God. God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 01-28-2008 at 03:17 PM..
I am a little confused....this verse seems to imply that those who do not endure to the end will go to hell. I was under the impression that the LDS church doesn't believe in hell. Am I incorrect, or do I simply not have all of the information regarding the LDS teaching on hell?
Thanks for the question. Yes Mormons do believe in Hell but probably not in the same sense as many other Christians. Again from the Book of Mormon Mosiah 2:
36 And now, I say unto you, my brethren, that after ye have known and have been taught all these things, if ye should transgress and go contrary to that which has been spoken, that ye do withdraw yourselves from the Spirit of the Lord, that it may have no place in you to guide you in wisdom’s paths that ye may be blessed, prospered, and preserved— 37 I say unto you, that the man that doeth this, the same cometh out in open rebellion against God; therefore he listeth to obey the evil spirit, and becometh an enemy to all righteousness; therefore, the Lord has no place in him, for he dwelleth not in unholy temples. 38 Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever. (emphasis added)
What constitutes "not enduring to the end" is for the Lord to decide. In the above scripture it seems to indicate that it is turning altogether away from the truth. I would invite other LDS to comment on this. Peter seems to indicate the same sentiment in his second epistle:
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
As you may have noticed Hell is a state of mind which is like an unquenchable fire whose flame ascendeth up forever, which may or may not be different than the teachings of other Christian churches . See above quote of Mosiah 2:38
I am a little confused....this verse seems to imply that those who do not endure to the end will go to hell. I was under the impression that the LDS church doesn't believe in hell. Am I incorrect, or do I simply not have all of the information regarding the LDS teaching on hell?
Hell is NOT a place of eternal punishment but the temporary state of suffering wicked spirits experience in spirit prison before Judgment Day. "That part of the spirit world inhabited by wicked spirits who are awaiting of eventual day of their resurrection is called hell.… Hell will have an end" D&C Student Manual, p. 165
"The regret the inhabitants of the lower kingdoms of heaven will experience as they see the glories of the celestial kingdom. "Of course, those who enter the telestial kingdom, and those who enter the terrestrial kingdom will have the eternal punishment which will come to them in knowing that they might, if they had kept the commandments of the Lord, have returned to his presence as his sons and his daughters. This will be a torment to them, and in the sense it will be hell"
Life and Teachings of Jesus & His Apostles, p. 66
The closest in LDS teaching that comes to the biblical concept of hell is outer darkness, the abode of Satan, demons, and the sons of perdition. Many Mormons believe that only a handful of people will qualify as sons of perdition and thus go to outer darkness
dojliyn, I can't help but wonder if trying to get a direct answer from some who have "authority" in this forum, you feel like alice in wonderland.
We don't mind answering questions from people like Dojliyn, because they are based on a sincere desire to know the LDS belief They are not leading and inflamatory questions that others like to post. That said, your descriptions of the LDS belief in Hell are actually pretty much right. We don't believe it will be a place of physical suffering -- more a place of mental anguish.
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