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Old 04-01-2014, 07:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
I did ramble, trying to get my thoughts together.

What I'm trying to ask is: for people, who are sincerely seeking some sort of direction spiritually for their lives, why doesn't the Holy Spirit warn them when they are about to fall into serious heresy following a philosophical system other than the true one that would be approved by the Holy Spirit.

Perhaps John is inappropriate here because, as someone pointed out, you must already be abiding in Jesus in order for the principle of "ask and it shall be granted to you" to work. I know that there are millions of people truly seeking "the Way" in their heart who accidentally stumble into all sorts of cults unknowingly because of their naivety. What actually is the Holy Spirit's job in leading these people away from making a mistake that has eternal consequences?

Re the Mormon example: I had this exact same thing happen to me and so am well aware of how the stereotypical missionary boys you've seen riding around on bicycles in two's present their message. It's a well-honed, well-rehearsed presentation designed to catch the maximum number of new converts and it succeeds very well, judging by how large the Mormon church has grown. But when they prayed that famous prayer wasn't the Holy Spirit supposed to be standing guard to protect these people when they fell prey? Or is this not part of the Holy Spirit's duties?

Confused, that's all.
Yes, I'd say it is first the Spirit's 'job' to lead us to truth, and then to warn us of danger. However, we have had to learn to discern His Voice, first. Does it happen all at once? No, it comes with, for lack of a better word, 'practice.' Many times, in the beginning, I thought what I 'heard' in my mind was just my own thought and so I ignored it.

Here's what I remember as the first time I heard 'the small still Voice.' I was doing some things around the house and this 'thought' popped into my mind, "Invite your new neighbor over for coffee." I remember thinking, what an odd thought, so I ignored it. Again I heard the same words and again I ignored it. A third time I heard the same words, and so I paused and thought, "Hmm...three times...maybe this is God??"

So as I walked towards the phone I prayed, "Father if the neighbor agrees I will know this thought is from you." Long story short the neighbor came and soon we were having a weekly Bible study and in time the neighbor became a believer.

Again, it took time and 'practice' to hear, realize it was the Spirit and then to obey.
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Old 04-01-2014, 09:30 PM
 
18,193 posts, read 16,778,496 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
Yes, I'd say it is first the Spirit's 'job' to lead us to truth, and then to warn us of danger. However, we have had to learn to discern His Voice, first. Does it happen all at once? No, it comes with, for lack of a better word, 'practice.' Many times, in the beginning, I thought what I 'heard' in my mind was just my own thought and so I ignored it.

Here's what I remember as the first time I heard 'the small still Voice.' I was doing some things around the house and this 'thought' popped into my mind, "Invite your new neighbor over for coffee." I remember thinking, what an odd thought, so I ignored it. Again I heard the same words and again I ignored it. A third time I heard the same words, and so I paused and thought, "Hmm...three times...maybe this is God??"

So as I walked towards the phone I prayed, "Father if the neighbor agrees I will know this thought is from you." Long story short the neighbor came and soon we were having a weekly Bible study and in time the neighbor became a believer.

Again, it took time and 'practice' to hear, realize it was the Spirit and then to obey.
What I'm hearing is that people can lose their salvation much quicker than the Holy Spirit is capable of intervening to save them.

When a person's eternal destiny is in the balance it shouldn't take a "growing process" in the Spirit to keep them from making the most disastrous mistake of their life. A person mistakenly moves to Baha'i instead of Christianity because their fervor over certain aspects of the religion that were attractive to them "in the moment" overruled whatever, if any, faint glimmers of warning might have been emanating from the Holy Spirit. Doesn't it stand to reason that the Holy spirit should have moved in a more powerful way to protect them, rather than just whispering in the background, "Alert. Alert".

Maybe this is not how the Holy Spirit operates. Maybe I just expect too powerful an intervention from the HS when it's just not His style to bowl a person over with a Magnitude 10 warning. But it just doesn't seem right that God would simply let people who are earnestly seeking spiritual fulfillment fall into the arms of the Enemy so easily.

I must not be explaining my dilemma effectively because I don't seem to be able to engender the sense of urgency in readers. It seems the typical attitude is, "Hey, be cool and let the Holy Spirit take care of it." Meanwhile souls are being lost by the millions.
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Old 04-02-2014, 05:58 PM
 
Location: Texas and Arkansas
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The phrase "in my name" means by his authority. So those early Christians could only ask what Christ had authorized them to ask for. Also, it appears it was limited to the pre 70AD Christians, since after that time the miraculous gifts stopped.
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Old 04-02-2014, 06:09 PM
 
18,172 posts, read 16,267,885 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
What I am trying to convey to many here is that you aren't aware that 95% of what you believe has been programmed into you by what you've been hearing on TBN, GodTV, DayStar, and hundreds of ministers over the course of your lifetime since you were in diapers. It's how the Powers-That-Be have programmed most Christians to believe the exact same dogmas they want them to believe--by not allowing them to think and to reason for themselves.

Let's take an example:

The Mormon missionaries use a similar technique. After the missionaries make their sales pitch out of a propped-up manual specially prepared for the missionaries to present the story of Joseph Smith, the golden plates, and the rest of it in the most effective way according to polling results, they then ask the people to get on their knees and pray thus:



So people do as they're instructed, pray with the missionaries and voila, they have this mystical, revelatory experience that everything the missionaries have said is the truth.

But we know it isn't the truth, don't we. It's a deception that will send these people straight to hell when they die, or so we Christians are told. So my question to the good people on this board, who sincerely believe John 14:13, is "Why didn't the Holy Spirit, who is the source of all truth, reveal to these people, 'Don't believe this lie. It is NOT the truth. Mormonism is a cult religion. The only truth is what Fundamentalist Christianity teaches.' Why didn't the Holy Spirit step in and prevent these honest, truth-seeking poor souls from making the biggest mistake of their lives by accepting Mormonism and thus condemning themselves to eternal torment?"

The answer I usually get is a dodge, "Well, you really aren't interested in knowing the truth, Thrillobyte, you just want to stir up trouble."

No kidding. That's the answer I usually get and I'm smart enough now to recognize a dodge. The truth is that the traditional Christians I ask this question to really don't know why the Holy Spirit doesn't step in to rescue them from the heresy of Mormonism and eternal damnation, again assuming Mormonism IS a heresy worthy of damnation.

Supposedly, if you ask God for anything in Jesus' Name He will give it to you, but these people, who are asking in Jesus' name for the truth of whether Mormonism is the one true religion get the "All's clear" signal that it's okay to join Mormonism, and another 10,000 or so souls are marked for eternal torment. And not just Mormonism, but Baha'i, Krishna, Buddhism--pretty much any religion they are gravitating toward.

Why doesn't the Holy Spirit rescue these people per Jesus' promise?
It takes more than prayer. Plus prayer is not answered as directly as they want or others want.
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Old 04-02-2014, 07:34 PM
 
1,534 posts, read 1,981,308 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
What I'm hearing is that people can lose their salvation much quicker than the Holy Spirit is capable of intervening to save them.

When a person's eternal destiny is in the balance it shouldn't take a "growing process" in the Spirit to keep them from making the most disastrous mistake of their life. A person mistakenly moves to Baha'i instead of Christianity because their fervor over certain aspects of the religion that were attractive to them "in the moment" overruled whatever, if any, faint glimmers of warning might have been emanating from the Holy Spirit. Doesn't it stand to reason that the Holy spirit should have moved in a more powerful way to protect them, rather than just whispering in the background, "Alert. Alert".

Maybe this is not how the Holy Spirit operates. Maybe I just expect too powerful an intervention from the HS when it's just not His style to bowl a person over with a Magnitude 10 warning. But it just doesn't seem right that God would simply let people who are earnestly seeking spiritual fulfillment fall into the arms of the Enemy so easily.

I must not be explaining my dilemma effectively because I don't seem to be able to engender the sense of urgency in readers. It seems the typical attitude is, "Hey, be cool and let the Holy Spirit take care of it." Meanwhile souls are being lost by the millions.
I understand what you're saying and your concern, I truly do. But, and I know this sounds like an 'tired' excuse or something, but there's rules one must follow in order for the Spirit to work in the lives of ppl. How so? First let's start with the Scriptures.

God made man and animals from the same 'substance' and that's why animals have much of the same DNA as man. Chimps for example have 99% of the same DNA. However God gave man a 'spirit' called the spirit of man that animals don't have.
“But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty gives them understanding” (Job 32:8).

The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, says the Lord, which stretches forth the heavens, and lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him” (Zech. 12:1).

Let the Lord, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation” (Num. 27:16).
Remembering this passage, “But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty gives them understanding.”
How does God do this? It happens via indwelling of the Holy Spirit, in those who are "converted"
For what man knows the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? Even so the things of God knows no man, but the Spirit of God” (1 Cor. 2:11).
Here's a couple examples of this from the OT:
“Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing” (Ezra 1:1).

The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord, searching all the inward parts of the belly.Proverbs 20:27


And from the NT:
The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God (Rom. 8:16).

For you are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, *which are God’s” (1 Cor. 6:20)


But you are come unto Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect (Heb. 12:22-23)
Now we see not only did God create man, but He gave us a spirit [which can also be translated as 'mind']. Do you think He would go to all that trouble and then not 'send' us an Instruction Book to help us find these truths, and put them into practice in our lives, etc etc?

I could say a whole lot more, but that's enough for now. I will close with this passage:
I thank You, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hid these things from the wise and prudent, and have revealed them unto babes” (Matt. 11:25)
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Old 04-02-2014, 07:58 PM
 
63,461 posts, read 39,726,177 times
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Default A Question That Burns in My Soul

The answers you will get from fundies and other 100% Bible believers will not satisfy. The bottom line of all of them will be: It is our fault if we fall away from what they consider to be the truth. We will not have done something right or been devout enough or sincere enough or . . . whatever. It is a tired old meme that inflates their sense of specialness as "true believers." Being special and exclusive is extremely important to far too many Christians, Thrill.
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Old 04-02-2014, 09:31 PM
 
Location: Free State of Texas
20,392 posts, read 12,668,457 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The answers you will get from fundies and other 100% Bible believers will not satisfy. The bottom line of all of them will be: It is our fault if we fall away from what they consider to be the truth. We will not have done something right or been devout enough or sincere enough or . . . whatever. It is a tired old meme that inflates their sense of specialness as "true believers." Being special and exclusive is extremely important to far too many Christians, Thrill.
Can you not make your point without name-calling/personal attacks?
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Old 04-02-2014, 10:04 PM
 
63,461 posts, read 39,726,177 times
Reputation: 7792
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
Can you not make your point without name-calling/personal attacks?
I ask again for the umpteenth time . . . WHO did I attack or call names, jimmie??? A personal attack requires a person. Name calling also requires a person.
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Old 04-02-2014, 11:00 PM
 
Location: Arizona
28,956 posts, read 16,192,722 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
Here's what I remember as the first time I heard 'the small still Voice.' I was doing some things around the house and this 'thought' popped into my mind, "Invite your new neighbor over for coffee." I remember thinking, what an odd thought, so I ignored it. Again I heard the same words and again I ignored it. A third time I heard the same words, and so I paused and thought, "Hmm...three times...maybe this is God??"
Personally, I wouldn't consider it an odd thought.
It's a way of getting to know your neighbor.


"It's just a nice thing to do; not necessarily a platform for Religious studies."
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Old 04-03-2014, 12:56 AM
 
18,193 posts, read 16,778,496 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
I understand what you're saying and your concern, I truly do. But, and I know this sounds like an 'tired' excuse or something, but there's rules one must follow in order for the Spirit to work in the lives of ppl. How so? First let's start with the Scriptures.

God made man and animals from the same 'substance' and that's why animals have much of the same DNA as man. Chimps for example have 99% of the same DNA. However God gave man a 'spirit' called the spirit of man that animals don't have.
“But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty gives them understanding” (Job 32:8).

The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, says the Lord, which stretches forth the heavens, and lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him” (Zech. 12:1).

Let the Lord, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation” (Num. 27:16).
Remembering this passage, “But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty gives them understanding.”
How does God do this? It happens via indwelling of the Holy Spirit, in those who are "converted"
For what man knows the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? Even so the things of God knows no man, but the Spirit of God” (1 Cor. 2:11).
Here's a couple examples of this from the OT:
“Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing” (Ezra 1:1).

The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord, searching all the inward parts of the belly.Proverbs 20:27


And from the NT:
The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God (Rom. 8:16).

For you are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, *which are God’s” (1 Cor. 6:20)


But you are come unto Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect (Heb. 12:22-23)
Now we see not only did God create man, but He gave us a spirit [which can also be translated as 'mind']. Do you think He would go to all that trouble and then not 'send' us an Instruction Book to help us find these truths, and put them into practice in our lives, etc etc?

I could say a whole lot more, but that's enough for now. I will close with this passage:
I thank You, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hid these things from the wise and prudent, and have revealed them unto babes” (Matt. 11:25)
I greatly appreciate your response, mshipmate and your valient attempt at trying to make rational sense out of this perplexing dilemma (perplexing for some; for others obvious not). I know the words of Jesus and I can't help think that often they are used as an excuse for God not intervening in our lives as dramatically as some of us would hope.

I would only ask you: if you saw a loved one in the exact situation I described--talking to Mormon missionaries; you knew your loved one had been in a state of vulnerability spiritually and was falling prey to the Mormons' pitch to join, how would you feel if, after they prayed to God for guidance, they decided He had answered their prayers by directing them to join the Mormon faith--that they felt it was His will that led them to the Mormons?

1. Would you feel betrayed by God?
2. Would you feel your loved one had truly been led to the Mormons by God because in the end all roads lead to Rome, so to speak, and each person finds the path to God that best suits him?
3. Would you feel that, right or wrong choice, it's their free will/their decision and you'd have to honor it?


Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The answers you will get from fundies and other 100% Bible believers will not satisfy. The bottom line of all of them will be: It is our fault if we fall away from what they consider to be the truth. We will not have done something right or been devout enough or sincere enough or . . . whatever. It is a tired old meme that inflates their sense of specialness as "true believers." Being special and exclusive is extremely important to far too many Christians, Thrill.
Yes, I know and agree the fundie's answer will not satisfy in the end, but I sincerely believe it's not their fault, Mystic. God has designed this life to be one great mystery. People like ourselves who are in pursuit of all the answers are on a fool's mission because there are no answers. The best examples I can give are ones I've already given on other posts which no one has bothered to reply to, either because they've just written me off or because they have no answer themselves and just push the issues out of their mind with a "God will provide" which immediately soothes their conscience.

In all religions, but especially Christianity it's best not to dig too deep with questions like the ones I ask because often we will not like the horrifying realities that barrel into us like a runaway freight train. This for example:

Quote:
Some say, "even though God predestined you for hell you are still responsible for payment for your sins". So it's a lose-lose for you; you never had a snowball's chance from the moment you were born because you're weren't divinely elected and since the Holy Spirit just passed you by because the Father hadn't chosen you as one of the elect you were just given over to your sins through no fault of your own which, by God's own Word, you must yield to as a weak, human being. Yet you are still held responsible for your sins even though you had no power to stop yourself from committing them because the Holy Spirit had chosen not to call you to repentence.
Has anyone ever truly stopped to consider just how screwed up this theology is, and yet I have heard the most egregious rationalizations to justify a system this mucked-up. My favorite comes from nutjob Paul Washer via a video candidly taped while he was rationalization to a seminar student asking the exact same question I just posed. Here's his reply:

Washer: "Say every man ever born rejects God and so He saves no one and every single one is sent to hell. Is that God's fault? Is God wrong in doing that? No! So that's what you got without election/predestination. To demonstrate His own kindness He chose to reach down and to elect a few men to salvation. Is that wrong? Don't all men deserve to be condemned to hell because of their sinful rebellious nature? So why is God accused of being unfair when He demonstrates His love by saving a few when all deserve eternal torment in hell?"

Washer is asking the wrong question. The question He should be asking is not, "Is God wrong" but "Is God fair?", to which all Calvinists automatically fall back on Paul's example of the potter and the pot, "Shall the pot tell the potter, 'Why did you make me this way'?"

Advance the video to 2:55 and listen, if you can stand it, to the hash for the next three minutes or so. I guarantee, if you are a rational thinker, that it will churn your stomach hearing some of the most sickening diatribe of apologetics for God's evil nature that you ever heard:


Paul washer explains the doctrine of Election/predestination(Calvinism) - YouTube

Yet for millions of Christians, some of my own family included, this is business as usual for a God, the Creator of the universe who comes off as either a bumbling inept idiot or the most vicious, depraved monster in the cosmos. He either deliberately chooses not to, or He is so incompetent He can only save a meager 1/2 of 1% percent of humanity simply because man is too evil to overcome God's ability to save them.

Bizarre. Crazy. Nutty theology, and I am saddened, angry, and bewildered all at once that this kind of rationalizing God's depravity, His indifference, or His incompetence goes on among Christians without them batting an eyelash. Truly breathtaking.
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