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The answers you will get from fundies and other 100% Bible believers will not satisfy. The bottom line of all of them will be: It is our fault if we fall away from what they consider to be the truth. We will not have done something right or been devout enough or sincere enough or . . . whatever. It is a tired old meme that inflates their sense of specialness as "true believers." Being special and exclusive is extremely important to far too many Christians, Thrill.
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Originally Posted by thrillobyte
Yes, I know and agree the fundie's answer will not satisfy in the end, but I sincerely believe it's not their fault, Mystic. God has designed this life to be one great mystery. People like ourselves who are in pursuit of all the answers are on a fool's mission because there are no answers. The best examples I can give are ones I've already given on other posts which no one has bothered to reply to, either because they've just written me off or because they have no answer themselves and just push the issues out of their mind with a "God will provide" which immediately soothes their conscience.
In all religions, but especially Christianity it's best not to dig too deep with questions like the ones I ask because often we will not like the horrifying realities that barrel into us like a runaway freight train. This for example:
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Some say, "even though God predestined you for hell you are still responsible for payment for your sins". So it's a lose-lose for you; you never had a snowball's chance from the moment you were born because you're weren't divinely elected and since the Holy Spirit just passed you by because the Father hadn't chosen you as one of the elect you were just given over to your sins through no fault of your own which, by God's own Word, you must yield to as a weak, human being. Yet you are still held responsible for your sins even though you had no power to stop yourself from committing them because the Holy Spirit had chosen not to call you to repentence.
Has anyone ever truly stopped to consider just how screwed up this theology is, and yet I have heard the most egregious rationalizations to justify a system this mucked-up. My favorite comes from nutjob Paul Washer via a video candidly taped while he was rationalization to a seminar student asking the exact same question I just posed. Here's his reply:
Washer: "Say every man ever born rejects God and so He saves no one and every single one is sent to hell. Is that God's fault? Is God wrong in doing that? No! So that's what you got without election/predestination. To demonstrate His own kindness He chose to reach down and to elect a few men to salvation. Is that wrong? Don't all men deserve to be condemned to hell because of their sinful rebellious nature? So why is God accused of being unfair when He demonstrates His love by saving a few when all deserve eternal torment in hell?"
Washer is asking the wrong question. The question He should be asking is not, "Is God wrong" but "Is God fair?", to which all Calvinists automatically fall back on Paul's example of the potter and the pot, "Shall the pot tell the potter, 'Why did you make me this way'?"
Yet for millions of Christians, some of my own family included, this is business as usual for a God, the Creator of the universe who comes off as either a bumbling inept idiot or the most vicious, depraved monster in the cosmos. He either deliberately chooses not to, or He is so incompetent He can only save a meager 1/2 of 1% percent of humanity simply because man is too evil to overcome God's ability to save them.
Bizarre. Crazy. Nutty theology, and I am saddened, angry, and bewildered all at once that this kind of rationalizing God's depravity, His indifference, or His incompetence goes on among Christians without them batting an eyelash. Truly breathtaking.
It is indeed truly breathtaking and mind boggling, Thrill. It is proof positive that there cannot be ANY real thought given to the religious beliefs people hold. Most of those who do think eventually stop believing altogether. It is a real travesty.
I'm completely at a loss here thrill. Are you saying that you believe that the Latter Day Saint faith is heretical and dangerous to people's souls? I fully anticipate meeting you, any number of LDS and non-LDS friends at the feet of God and Christ in the next life. What aspect of Mormonism do you expect is so dangerous that we should fear for the souls of those who convert to the Mormon faith? From what I've seen, they are some of the most devoted followers of Christ you can find. And I gotta say that their belief that everyone eventually gets saved and welcomed into some degree of heaven to be refreshing. It's nice to see a bit less of the whole "Most humans ever born are evil sinners who will burn in hell for eternity" and more of the "God is merciful and willing to save us all" teachings out there. Their core belief is that Jesus Christ is the savior of the world and that through him they and all mankind may be saved. Sounds like they've got the central message of Christianity right, doesn't it?
Do you personally believe that Mormonism damns the souls of its adherents? If so, please explain why.
I'm completely at a loss here thrill. Are you saying that you believe that the Latter Day Saint faith is heretical and dangerous to people's souls? I fully anticipate meeting you, any number of LDS and non-LDS friends at the feet of God and Christ in the next life. What aspect of Mormonism do you expect is so dangerous that we should fear for the souls of those who convert to the Mormon faith? From what I've seen, they are some of the most devoted followers of Christ you can find. And I gotta say that their belief that everyone eventually gets saved and welcomed into some degree of heaven to be refreshing. It's nice to see a bit less of the whole "Most humans ever born are evil sinners who will burn in hell for eternity" and more of the "God is merciful and willing to save us all" teachings out there. Their core belief is that Jesus Christ is the savior of the world and that through him they and all mankind may be saved. Sounds like they've got the central message of Christianity right, doesn't it?
Do you personally believe that Mormonism damns the souls of its adherents? If so, please explain why.
Oh, heavens no, god, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying this from the perspective of a fundamentalist Christian who might be questioning why the theology (s)he has set up in their mind to work a certain way based on what they have been indoctrinated in since childhood does not, in fact work. Ask and it shall be given to you, right? Pray your loved ones will be protected from the evil one (heretical religions like LDS's),
right. Yet fundamentalists pray for their loved one to be saved and they are lost (again, from the fundie's POV) anyway, right?
My cousin and brother, who are avid fundies, pray for my 94 YO Mom every day yet she is a bigger atheist today than ever---raised Catholic, turned agnostic, now hard-core atheist. They're constantly asking me, "Has she changed? Is she softening to the Voice of God?" I always have to tell them no.
The fundie formula just doesn't seem to be working, but my brother and cousin just sort of shrug and say, "It's in God's hands. He will provide." I realize there's not much more they can do from their end, but they never question why their prayers are being ignored nor do they seem bothered by it. C'est la vie.
I greatly appreciate your response, mshipmate and your valient attempt at trying to make rational sense out of this perplexing dilemma (perplexing for some; for others obvious not). I know the words of Jesus and I can't help think that often they are used as an excuse for God not intervening in our lives as dramatically as some of us would hope.
I would only ask you: if you saw a loved one in the exact situation I described--talking to Mormon missionaries; you knew your loved one had been in a state of vulnerability spiritually and was falling prey to the Mormons' pitch to join, how would you feel if, after they prayed to God for guidance, they decided He had answered their prayers by directing them to join the Mormon faith--that they felt it was His will that led them to the Mormons?
1. Would you feel betrayed by God?
2. Would you feel your loved one had truly been led to the Mormons by God because in the end all roads lead to Rome, so to speak, and each person finds the path to God that best suits him?
3. Would you feel that, right or wrong choice, it's their free will/their decision and you'd have to honor it?
Yes, I know and agree the fundie's answer will not satisfy in the end, but I sincerely believe it's not their fault, Mystic. God has designed this life to be one great mystery. People like ourselves who are in pursuit of all the answers are on a fool's mission because there are no answers. The best examples I can give are ones I've already given on other posts which no one has bothered to reply to, either because they've just written me off or because they have no answer themselves and just push the issues out of their mind with a "God will provide" which immediately soothes their conscience.
In all religions, but especially Christianity it's best not to dig too deep with questions like the ones I ask because often we will not like the horrifying realities that barrel into us like a runaway freight train. This for example:
Has anyone ever truly stopped to consider just how screwed up this theology is, and yet I have heard the most egregious rationalizations to justify a system this mucked-up. My favorite comes from nutjob Paul Washer via a video candidly taped while he was rationalization to a seminar student asking the exact same question I just posed. Here's his reply:
Washer: "Say every man ever born rejects God and so He saves no one and every single one is sent to hell. Is that God's fault? Is God wrong in doing that? No! So that's what you got without election/predestination. To demonstrate His own kindness He chose to reach down and to elect a few men to salvation. Is that wrong? Don't all men deserve to be condemned to hell because of their sinful rebellious nature? So why is God accused of being unfair when He demonstrates His love by saving a few when all deserve eternal torment in hell?"
Washer is asking the wrong question. The question He should be asking is not, "Is God wrong" but "Is God fair?", to which all Calvinists automatically fall back on Paul's example of the potter and the pot, "Shall the pot tell the potter, 'Why did you make me this way'?"
Advance the video to 2:55 and listen, if you can stand it, to the hash for the next three minutes or so. I guarantee, if you are a rational thinker, that it will churn your stomach hearing some of the most sickening diatribe of apologetics for God's evil nature that you ever heard:
Yet for millions of Christians, some of my own family included, this is business as usual for a God, the Creator of the universe who comes off as either a bumbling inept idiot or the most vicious, depraved monster in the cosmos. He either deliberately chooses not to, or He is so incompetent He can only save a meager 1/2 of 1% percent of humanity simply because man is too evil to overcome God's ability to save them.
Bizarre. Crazy. Nutty theology, and I am saddened, angry, and bewildered all at once that this kind of rationalizing God's depravity, His indifference, or His incompetence goes on among Christians without them batting an eyelash. Truly breathtaking.
Quote:
I greatly appreciate your response, mshipmate and your valient attempt at trying to make rational sense out of this perplexing dilemma (perplexing for some; for others obvious not). I know the words of Jesus and I can't help think that often they are used as an excuse for God not intervening in our lives as dramatically as some of us would hope.
You say, "I know the words of Jesus," but I must ask, "Do you really?" Why do I say this? How about these words of His:
Lu 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
And what about this 'command' in Joh 3:
30 He must increase, but I must decrease.
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I would only ask you: if you saw a loved one in the exact situation I described--talking to Mormon missionaries; you knew your loved one had been in a state of vulnerability spiritually and was falling prey to the Mormons' pitch to join, how would you feel if, after they prayed to God for guidance, they decided He had answered their prayers by directing them to join the Mormon faith--that they felt it was His will that led them to the Mormons?
1. Would you feel betrayed by God?
2. Would you feel your loved one had truly been led to the Mormons by God because in the end all roads lead to Rome, so to speak, and each person finds the path to God that best suits him?
3. Would you feel that, right or wrong choice, it's their free will/their decision and you'd have to honor it?
1. absolutely not! Why? Because I would pray for the Father to stop this from happening if it were His will. Then I would try must best, using Scripture to show them the error of the 'church' they were interested in.
2. No, again. After I felt I had done everything "I" could I'd leave it at that for I know ppl have their own will. I also understand they wouldn't have even consider this idea if they had the Holy Spirit to guide them.
3.Yes, they're family. I wouldn't 'shun' them, but continue to love them.
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Yes, I know and agree the fundie's answer will not satisfy in the end, but I sincerely believe it's not their fault, Mystic. God has designed this life to be one great mystery.
People like ourselves who are in pursuit of all the answers are on a fool's mission because there are no answers.
This is a sad statement. God made mankind to have a 'brain' to reason/understand things. Do you really think He'd go to all that 'trouble' and then not send an 'Instruction Book' for us to follow? He did, but much like the instruction books that come with our appliances, if you turn to the page that's written in Spanish by mistake, you still won't be able to figure anything out. Well for obedient believers we have the ability to read 'Spanish' by the Holy Spirit in us.
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just push the issues out of their mind with a "God will provide" which immediately soothes their conscience.
On this comment I can only 'speak for myself' but just so you know I have seen God work. Without going into detail, for it's happened numerous times, I have prayed Him to open doors if a particular 'pray' is what He wants for our lives and then I have just 'stood back and watched Him move/work.'
So, you don't have to feel sorry for me. This relationship with Father Abba is not just an imaginary thing. It's the most REAL thing that's ever happened to me/my family.
BTW, I didn't take the time to watch the videos. I've heard similar opnions and that's just what they are; man's commandments/doctrines.
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Yet for millions of Christians, some of my own family included, this is business as usual for a God, the Creator of the universe who comes off as either a bumbling inept idiot or the most vicious, depraved monster in the cosmos. He either deliberately chooses not to, or He is so incompetent He can only save a meager 1/2 of 1% percent of humanity simply because man is too evil to overcome God's ability to save them.
Again, I know ppl who are very sincere in their beliefs [above] but this tells me these same ppl haven't studied these same teachings to the fullest exstent. If they did they'd know better. But sad to say, many Christians are satisfied with what they've read, heard from the pulpit, or have always believed and have no desire to dig for the truth.
I won't go into it here. I've posted about these things in other threads.
I ask again for the umpteenth time . . . WHO did I attack or call names, jimmie??? A personal attack requires a person. Name calling also requires a person.
"Fundies" is a personal attack and insult. The term carries a negative connotation.
Oh, heavens no, god, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying this from the perspective of a fundamentalist Christian who might be questioning why the theology (s)he has set up in their mind to work a certain way based on what they have been indoctrinated in since childhood does not, in fact work. Ask and it shall be given to you, right? Pray your loved ones will be protected from the evil one (heretical religions like LDS's),
right. Yet fundamentalists pray for their loved one to be saved and they are lost (again, from the fundie's POV) anyway, right?
Okay I think I understand now. You had me a bit scared there. I'd never known you to be a hater. I'm glad I was just misunderstanding!
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My cousin and brother, who are avid fundies, pray for my 94 YO Mom every day yet she is a bigger atheist today than ever---raised Catholic, turned agnostic, now hard-core atheist. They're constantly asking me, "Has she changed? Is she softening to the Voice of God?" I always have to tell them no.
The fundie formula just doesn't seem to be working, but my brother and cousin just sort of shrug and say, "It's in God's hands. He will provide." I realize there's not much more they can do from their end, but they never question why their prayers are being ignored nor do they seem bothered by it. C'est la vie.
"Ask and it shall be given to you".
That's just not true.
I can tell you from firsthand experience that if you ask it really will be given to you. But there is a higher rule that God will not violate. He will not ever force anyone to believe in Him. We can pray for others, but God will never deprive those we pray for of their freedom to choose for themselves.
Has anyone ever truly stopped to consider just how screwed up this theology is, and yet I have heard the most egregious rationalizations to justify a system this mucked-up. My favorite comes from nutjob Paul Washer via a video candidly taped while he was rationalization to a seminar student asking the exact same question I just posed. Here's his reply:
Washer: "Say every man ever born rejects God and so He saves no one and every single one is sent to hell. Is that God's fault? Is God wrong in doing that? No! So that's what you got without election/predestination. To demonstrate His own kindness He chose to reach down and to elect a few men to salvation. Is that wrong? Don't all men deserve to be condemned to hell because of their sinful rebellious nature? So why is God accused of being unfair when He demonstrates His love by saving a few when all deserve eternal torment in hell?"
Washer is asking the wrong question. The question He should be asking is not, "Is God wrong" but "Is God fair?", to which all Calvinists automatically fall back on Paul's example of the potter and the pot, "Shall the pot tell the potter, 'Why did you make me this way'?"
Advance the video to 2:55 and listen, if you can stand it, to the hash for the next three minutes or so. I guarantee, if you are a rational thinker, that it will churn your stomach hearing some of the most sickening diatribe of apologetics for God's evil nature that you ever heard:
Yet for millions of Christians, some of my own family included, this is business as usual for a God, the Creator of the universe who comes off as either a bumbling inept idiot or the most vicious, depraved monster in the cosmos. He either deliberately chooses not to, or He is so incompetent He can only save a meager 1/2 of 1% percent of humanity simply because man is too evil to overcome God's ability to save them.
Bizarre. Crazy. Nutty theology, and I am saddened, angry, and bewildered all at once that this kind of rationalizing God's depravity, His indifference, or His incompetence goes on among Christians without them batting an eyelash. Truly breathtaking.
Washer is starting from the very flawed premise that people deserve eternal suffering for being evil, even thought that is the way they were created and they had no choice in the matter (ie. no one asks to be born into this world as a sinner).
In effect (under the Calvinist system) God is judging the blind man for his inability to read, even though Washer gives that specific example. Washer tries to argue man's inability to come to God doesn't matter, because man doesn't want to come to God. Yet that is how they are born - that is how they are made - so how can man be held responsible? They are unable - according to Washer's own theology - so therefore they cannot be held responsible.
I don't get either why Calvinists don't see their entire premise is flawed.
You say, "I know the words of Jesus," but I must ask, "Do you really?" Why do I say this? How about these words of His:
Lu 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
And what about this 'command' in Joh 3:
30 He must increase, but I must decrease.
I think the "words" I was referring to were the ones (maybe I'm mistaken) about Jesus saying, "Unless you believe as a child you will not inherit..." Was that the words you quoted earlier?
Re the "not my will but Thine...." I know that many Christians pray this way, "Lord, I ask for this if it be in Thy will".
Now I was taught--and that's not to say it's right, maybe it's wrong--but I was taught per Mark "Ask for ANYTHING, NOT HAVING ANY DOUBTS, and it shall be done." So you have to believe 1000% that it will be done, no "if it be Thy will" stuff because as soon as you say, "If it be Thy Will" that indicates you have doubts that God will do it. It's like, "Lord, I'd really like this, but I'm not sure if you'll give it to me so 'if it be Your will' please grant me this' as opposed to "Lord, I ask for this in Jesus name and I know with confidence it's already done because You said it would be. Hallelujah!"
See the difference in the approach? At least this is what I was taught. Ask for anything, not having any doubts, and don't say "if it be your will" because that reflects the tinniest bit of doubt and God cannot answer when there is even 0.00001% doubt.
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A personal attack requires a person. Name calling also requires a person.
