Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Augustine was perfectly free to decide for himself what he believed about it, and whether he came to believe that the rock was Peter's confession of faith exclusively or not is immaterial to the legitimacy of the papacy.
As I havesaid, the question here is not about the legitimacy of the Papacy, but whether this verse can be used to support it, and Augustine clearly came to the final conclusion that the verrse was speaking of Peter's confession as the foundation of His church. Augustine was not stupid, he finally figured it out, and he at least had the integrity to say so.
As I havesaid, the question here is not about the legitimacy of the Papacy, but whether this verse can be used to support it, and Augustine clearly came to the final conclusion that the verrse was speaking of Peter's confession as the foundation of His church. Augustine was not stupid, he finally figured it out, and he at least had the integrity to say so.
So, Augustine is your guy, eh? You're going to go with whatever he says (since it conveniently matches your belief)?
Okay. Just how much Augustine can you stand?
On Infant Baptism
"It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that infant is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, `Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents' or `by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him,' but, `Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit.' The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam" (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 408]).
On Baptismal Regeneration
It is an excellent thing that the Punic [North African] Christians call baptism salvation and the sacrament of Christ’s body nothing else than life. Whence does this derive, except from an ancient and, as I suppose, apostolic tradition, by which the churches of Christ hold inherently that without baptism and participation at the table of the Lord it is impossible for any man to attain either to the kingdom of God or to salvation and life eternal? This is the witness of Scripture too. (Forgiveness and the Just Deserts of Sin, and the Baptism of Infants 1:24:34 [A.D. 412])
The sacrament of baptism is most assuredly the sacrament of regeneration. (Ibid., 2:27:43)
On Baptism of Blood and Baptism of Desire
"Those who, though they have not received the washing of regeneration, die for the confession of Christ--it avails them just as much for the forgiveness of their sins as if they had been washed in the sacred font of baptism. For he that said, `If anyone is not reborn of water and the Spirit, he will not enter the kingdom of heaven,' made an exception for them in that other statement in which he says no less generally, `Whoever confesses me before men, I too will confess him before my Father, who is in heaven'" [Matt. 10:32] (City of God 13:7 [A.D. 420]).
On Praying for the Dead
"We read in the books of the Maccabees [2 Macc. 12:43] that sacrifice was offered for the dead. But even if it were found nowhere in the Old Testament writings, the authority of the Catholic Church which is clear on this point is of no small weight, where in the prayers of the priest poured forth to the Lord God at his altar the commendation of the dead has its place." (The Care to be Had for the Dead 1:3 [A.D. 421])
On the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist
I promised you [new Christians], who have now been baptized, a sermon in which I would explain the sacrament of the Lord’s Table. . . . That bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the body of Christ. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ. (Sermons 227 [A.D. 411])
What you see is the bread and the chalice; that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that the bread is the body of Christ and the chalice is the blood of Christ. This has been said very briefly, which may perhaps be sufficient for faith; yet faith does not desire instruction. (Ibid., 272)
Perhaps you stopped reading because you want to worship God your own way and would rather not face the truth, because that would cause major changes in your life, if you were to learn, that you had made a huge mistake in leaving the Church.
On the positive side, however, think what facing the truth would do for God & your soul!
Read the posts in their entirety, and challenge yourself, for your sake and for Gods sake, too!
One final time here Gabriel. Godlead me out of the Catholic church, do you honestly think a 'man' could lead me back!!?
I've been walking with Christ for 34 yrs. I know His Voice. I believe His Scriptures. So I will ask you once more, "Who should I believe, God or man?"
You are of course free to believe men's doctrines, but as for me and my house, we will follow the Lord!!
And as far as Carson's posts...been there done that, heard it all, want no part of the lies.
ETA: You are making a HUGE assumption in your first comment above. God came and found me and drew me to Himself 34 yrs ago and believe me it turned my 'perfect little world' upside down. You have no clue what you think I need to do. For the last and final time: God lead me away from all the lies; so you are then trying to tell me it was God who made a mistake!!?
Last edited by mshipmate; 04-18-2014 at 09:16 AM..
So, Augustine is your guy, eh? You're going to go with whatever he says (since it conveniently matches your belief)?
Okay. Just how much Augustine can you stand?
ALL I said was that Augustine is known as a "Doctor of the Church" and that he clearly came to understand the actual meaning of the verses that Roman Catholics use to prop up their allegations about the authority of the Pope and had the integrity to say what it is. The rest of the post has nothing whatsoever to do with that fact and is just more of your schoolyard bluster.
I had some hopes for you based on your book recommendation, but it appears that you are no more up to good conversation than your tiresome associates. Keep working on that book and follow it with Brother Andrew's The Practice of His Presence and you might actually outgrow this foolishness.
ALL I said was that Augustine is known as a "Doctor of the Church" and that he clearly came to understand the actual meaning of the verses that Roman Catholics use to prop up their allegations about the authority of the Pope and had the integrity to say what it is. The rest of the post has nothing whatsoever to do with that fact and is just more of your schoolyard bluster.
I had some hopes for you based on your book recommendation, but it appears that you are no more up to good conversation than your tiresome associates. Keep working on that book and follow it with Brother Andrew's The Practice of His Presence and you might actually outgrow this foolishness.
There is more to Catholicism than YOU know.
I am curious.
Who cares what Augustine believed?
Note not to knock Augustine as a person, but why should his opinion bear any real weight?
One final time here Gabriel. Godlead me out of the Catholic church, do you honestly think a 'man' could lead me back!!?
I've been walking with Christ for 34 yrs. I know His Voice. I believe His Scriptures. So I will ask you once more, "Who should I believe, God or man?"
You are of course free to believe men's doctrines, but as for me and my house, we will follow the Lord!!
And as far as Carson's posts...been there done that, heard it all, want no part of the lies.
ETA: You are making a HUGE assumption in your first comment above. God came and found me and drew me to Himself 34 yrs ago and believe me it turned my 'perfect little world' upside down. You have no clue what you think I need to do. For the last and final time: God lead me away from all the lies; so you are then trying to tell me it was God who made a mistake!!?
And God led me in 35 years ago, so there!
Unless you are over the age of 60, my suspicion is that you really didn't know your doctrine terribly well. Heck, even if you ARE over 60, you probably were never taught Catholicism well.
The reason is that the 60's and 70's were a TERRIBLE time for Catholic catechesis. After Vatican II, all sorts of doctrinal nonsense was foisted upon the American Catholic laity by liberal nuns and priests. Vietnam, the hippies, feminists...you remember all that, right? The Church was caught in the storm, and let's be honest, Satan made hay while the sun was shining. I'll venture another guess: I bet you went to Catholic schools, didn't you? Sigh. Who knows how many kids were lost due to the foolishness of Catholic religion teachers during that era?
So, I have my doubts as to whether you EVER knew your Catholic faith, and I strongly suspect that you never knew Jesus then, either. Your story may be slightly different, but this is the pattern I have heard from countless former Catholics over the years. So, you left a faith you never knew for a God you never knew until you found Him elsewhere. Okay, I get that.
My story is the opposite. Raised in a solid Methodist home, I was led by the Lord INTO the Catholic Church while I was in college in the deep south...not exactly Catholic territory. In fact, I think I only knew one Catholic in my entire life prior to graduating from high school. But as you may have noticed from my posts, I'm a bit of a stickler for facts and data, so I read extensively before embracing Catholicism, and I haven't stopped. This is true of most converts...the more they study, the more they realize that Catholicism is true. Converts into the Church usually know far more than the cradle Catholics, and a heck of a lot more than the folks who leave with only a Catholic grade-school level understanding.
NOTHING in all my study of theology and apologetics has given me any cause for concern about a single doctrine of the Catholic Church. In fact, the deeper I go, the more I learn about how complete the Church's teaching really is. Of course, that only makes sense...the Catholic Church was built by Jesus and is led by the Holy Spirit into all truth. Infallibility has a funny way of eliminating the problems that other Christian denominations have fallen prey to. But I digress.
My point is simply this: perhaps you are that rare individual who was thoroughly knowledgeable regarding Catholic theology, and you made the intellectual decision to reject what you knew. I say rare, because most folks our age are largely clueless about what Catholics actually believe. And rare because most people who leave do so due to some moral issue: divorce, contraception, etc. But my bet is that you left (and remain) largely ignorant about Catholic doctrine.
ALL I said was that Augustine is known as a "Doctor of the Church" and that he clearly came to understand the actual meaning of the verses that Roman Catholics use to prop up their allegations about the authority of the Pope and had the integrity to say what it is. The rest of the post has nothing whatsoever to do with that fact and is just more of your schoolyard bluster.
I had some hopes for you based on your book recommendation, but it appears that you are no more up to good conversation than your tiresome associates. Keep working on that book and follow it with Brother Andrew's The Practice of His Presence and you might actually outgrow this foolishness.
There is more to Catholicism than YOU know.
I certainly hope so. God is much bigger than all of us, and the Church Militant is just one part of His bride.
BTW, it's Brother Lawrence, and yes, I read that many years ago. I think I will take another look at it. Thanks!
Note not to knock Augustine as a person, but why should his opinion bear any real weight?
Protestants like to trot out quotes from Augustine from time to time as if he were some sort of proto-Protestant. When they realize how thoroughly Catholic he was (as were ALL the ECF's), they typically move on to another topic.
Unless you are over the age of 60, my suspicion is that you really didn't know your doctrine terribly well. Heck, even if you ARE over 60, you probably were never taught Catholicism well.
The reason is that the 60's and 70's were a TERRIBLE time for Catholic catechesis. After Vatican II, all sorts of doctrinal nonsense was foisted upon the American Catholic laity by liberal nuns and priests. Vietnam, the hippies, feminists...you remember all that, right? The Church was caught in the storm, and let's be honest, Satan made hay while the sun was shining. I'll venture another guess: I bet you went to Catholic schools, didn't you? Sigh. Who knows how many kids were lost due to the foolishness of Catholic religion teachers during that era?
So, I have my doubts as to whether you EVER knew your Catholic faith, and I strongly suspect that you never knew Jesus then, either. Your story may be slightly different, but this is the pattern I have heard from countless former Catholics over the years. So, you left a faith you never knew for a God you never knew until you found Him elsewhere. Okay, I get that.
My story is the opposite. Raised in a solid Methodist home, I was led by the Lord INTO the Catholic Church while I was in college in the deep south...not exactly Catholic territory. In fact, I think I only knew one Catholic in my entire life prior to graduating from high school. But as you may have noticed from my posts, I'm a bit of a stickler for facts and data, so I read extensively before embracing Catholicism, and I haven't stopped. This is true of most converts...the more they study, the more they realize that Catholicism is true. Converts into the Church usually know far more than the cradle Catholics, and a heck of a lot more than the folks who leave with only a Catholic grade-school level understanding.
NOTHING in all my study of theology and apologetics has given me any cause for concern about a single doctrine of the Catholic Church. In fact, the deeper I go, the more I learn about how complete the Church's teaching really is. Of course, that only makes sense...the Catholic Church was built by Jesus and is led by the Holy Spirit into all truth. Infallibility has a funny way of eliminating the problems that other Christian denominations have fallen prey to. But I digress.
My point is simply this: perhaps you are that rare individual who was thoroughly knowledgeable regarding Catholic theology, and you made the intellectual decision to reject what you knew. I say rare, because most folks our age are largely clueless about what Catholics actually believe. And rare because most people who leave do so due to some moral issue: divorce, contraception, etc. But my bet is that you left (and remain) largely ignorant about Catholic doctrine.
Great response, Carson. How true. When you dig deep enough, the real reasons for leaving the CC are either from ignorance or selfishness! What is sad is that so many non-Catholic Christians appear to be brainwashed. They just won't allow themselves to take that step back and look at common logic in regards to early church history and history in general. For me and many others, it was the writings of the Early Church Father's all who were undeniably Catholic, and they, beyond doubt connect the dots all the way back to Christ & his apostles.
I agree with you 100%. I also believe that often times, converts and reverts make the best Catholics.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
