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What's the matter? You guys are using schoolyard antics now. Maybe you should pass around some pom-poms between yourselves along with a high leg kick or too!
On second thought, let's skip the high kicks, ok?
I'm more of the Restorationist persuasion than Protestant, but I think you're missing a pretty important point here. Asking the question, "Is Protestantism true?" is a bit like asking "Are political parties true?" You're asking whether a broad diversity of frequently contradicting beliefs are true. Well, the best answer you'll ever get is, "Yes and no." Some Protestants believe in a physical church, some do not. Some believe in a priesthood of all believers and some do not. Some believe in Sola Scriptura and some do not. Some believe in the Trinity and some do not. Some believe in infant baptism and some do not. Some believe in being saved by grace alone and some do not. Some believe that the manifestations of gifts of the Spirit are essential and some do not. Some believe in predestination and some do not.
Do I really need to continue?
The one unifying belief for all Protestants is the belief that Catholicism isn't true. So with that in mind:
Q: What if Protestantism is true?
A: Then obviously, Catholicism is false.
What's the matter? You guys are using schoolyard antics now. Maybe you should pass around some pom-poms between yourselves along with a high leg kick or too!
On second thought, let's skip the high kicks, ok?
OK, Tell me this: who was Pope when James was Bishop of Jerusalem? You claim to know the history of the church, so you should know.
I believe Christianity is true and both Romanism and Protestantism are false. After all Protestants are just Romans in protest. Same thing!
I believe that every one who obeys the teachings of Christ, believes His promises and accepts His salvation is saved and rightly called a Christian. Many of them are Catholics and many are non-Catholics. There may even be a few Popes and TV evangelists in God's Kingdom.
Translate: "When the Catholic Church told me that documented history contrary to Church propaganda was just from people who hated the Catholic Church, I bought it hook line and sinker."
Nate-
I am a convert to the Catholic Church...raised in a solid Protestant home.
I can assure you that what "the Catholic Church told me" had nothing to do with my conversion.
Many, many Protestants who ultimately find their way home began the journey where you are now...seeking to prove the Catholic Church wrong.
So, you've taken the first step. May your journey reach a glorious end.
OK, Tell me this: who was Pope when James was Bishop of Jerusalem? You claim to know the history of the church, so you should know.
Peter was head of the universal Church at the time that James was head of the local church in Jerusalem.
You want some history? Read on...
Peter, James and the Council of Jerusalem
Many non-Catholics claim that Peter could not have been the head of the earthly Church or “pope” because they believe that it was James, not Peter, who gave the final decision concerning circumcision of the Gentiles at the Council of Jerusalem recorded in Acts 15. This position indicates a complete misunderstanding of the dynamics of the council. Mark Bonocore, a noted Catholic apologist, addressed this misunderstanding in his debate with Jason Engwer in 1999.
Regarding the Jerusalem council in Acts 15, I pointed out in my [opening statement] how Peter gives the definitive teachings and how, after he speaks, all debate comes to an end. However, Engwer rejects this, citing the amendments given by James, and says how James is the only one to render “judgment.” Well, first of all, it must be noted that James bases his remarks on Peter’s teaching:
“Brothers, listen to me. Symeon (i.e., Peter) has described how ...” (Acts 15:13-14).
Secondly, look at what James actually says in relation to his “judgment”:
“It is my judgment, therefore, that we ought to stop troubling the Gentiles” (Acts 15:19).
Well, who is this “we”? Who was “troubling the Gentiles”? Certainly not Peter (Acts 10:44-49, 11:1-18, 15:7-10). Certainly not Paul or Barnabas. So, who? Acts 15:1 tells us:
“Some who had come down from Judea were instructing the brothers, ‘Unless you are circumcised ..., you cannot be saved.”
It was the Jewish faction under James (bishop of Jerusalem) that was troubling the Gentiles (Acts 15:5, Gal 2:12).
Thus, James is speaking for them, not for the whole council. Indeed, that’s why his remarks are recorded at all—to show that the leader of the Jewish faction subscribed to the decisions of the council, and so silence the Judaizers who Paul will encounter later (Titus 1:10-11).*
In addition to Bonocore’s comments, I would point out that as leader of the church in Jerusalem, James was the head of a congregation which counted among its members many priests and Pharisees who still held to their Jewish roots and believed that Gentiles must become Jews through circumcision in order to become Christians. I refer you to the following:
Acts 4:36-37
36Joseph, a Levite from Cyprus, whom the apostles called Barnabas (which means Son of Encouragement), 37sold a field he owned and brought the money and put it at the apostles' feet.
Acts 6:7
7So the word of God spread. The number of disciples in Jerusalem increased rapidly, and a large number of priests became obedient to the faith.
Some from among this group had gone to Galatia and upset the Gentile believers there.
Galatians 2:11-14
11When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group.
From this, we can see that the Council of Jerusalem was divided into two camps: those who believed the Gentile converts should be circumcised and those who did not. Peter addresses the former with these words:
“Now then, why do you [Judaizers] try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are." (Acts 15:10-11)
James addresses them, also:
"Brothers, listen to me. 14Simon (note that James even used Peter's Hebrew name when speaking to the Judaizers) has described to us (James must be speaking here to the believers from Jerusalem since those from Galatia would already have been familiar with God's work in that province!) how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself...19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we (the Jewish Christians of Jerusalem) should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them..." (Acts 15:13-20)
Thus, after hearing Peter's doctrinal pronouncement, James rose to speak and addressed those from his own flock whom he knew would have the hardest time accepting Peter's decision. James accepted Peter's teaching and added his own pastoral comments for the benefit of the pro-circumcision group present and for those who might be tempted to doubt that the leader of the "Judaizers" really had accepted the decision of the full ecumenical council that circumcision was unnecessary for Gentiles.
I am a convert to the Catholic Church...raised in a solid Protestant home.
I can assure you that what "the Catholic Church told me" had nothing to do with my conversion.
Many, many Protestants who ultimately find their way home began the journey where you are now...seeking to prove the Catholic Church wrong.
So, you've taken the first step. May your journey reach a glorious end.
Actually, I could care less about "proving the Catholic Church to be wrong" except for the schoolyard tactics of those who come here saying essentially, "My church can beat up your church." I would a whole lot rather talk about how Catholics find love of God and man within their church as I have found it within mine.
Actually, I could care less about "proving the Catholic Church to be wrong" except for the schoolyard tactics of those who come here saying essentially, "My church can beat up your church." I would a whole lot rather talk about how Catholics find love of God and man within their church as I have found it within mine.
C'mon Nate, after all the unfair, crude attacks on Catholicism (for as long as I've been here), and now you want to do the ole switcheroo? If you want to do that fine. Start another thread.
Carson is making excellent points in defending against yours and other's attacks. Cowboy-up and deal with it in an intelligent way.
... There's no way to know whether you're assenting to divine revelation or to mere human opinion about divine revelation.
Protestants and Catholics both believe that God has revealed himself to man over the course of human history, culminating in his ultimate self-revelation in Jesus Christ. But whereas Catholics believe that Christ founded a visible Church—which subsists in the Catholic Church—and has protected its doctrines from error, Protestants reject the notion of ecclesial infallibility, maintaining that no person, church, or denomination has been preserved from error in its teachings. Cath.Ans.
Thanks for the good laugh. You should try to get on Saturday Night Live.
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