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Old 04-25-2014, 03:28 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
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Sacrament is living every day in the consciousness of our relationship with God and man through Christ in the Way. No ceremonies required, but can enhance that experience as we invest it with meanin ourselves.... i.e. we get out of them what we put into them.

 
Old 04-25-2014, 03:30 PM
 
12,030 posts, read 9,278,298 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
Julian, as always you are a credit to your religion. For you, the RCC is a vehicle of love, harmony and of Christ Jesus. Your genuineness is just a beautiful thing.
Thanks, but I am probably a very bad Catholic. I go to mass every Sunday and on days of obligation, but i have not been to confession in years. I don't have anything to confess!

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Mystic and I are the same in many ways. The age old debate between the infallible Bible and the infallible Pope/Church is front and center in Christianity, and we are not on either side. We reject both to one degree or another. My advice to Mystic would not be to join my religion or yours or any other. My advice would be for him to pray to God to know if he should join a religion. Would it enhance his relationship with God? Only God can answer that question. For my part, I have found that belonging to and associating with a church is a good thing. Strength in numbers and shared spiritual strength, etc. I have found my religion through that same approach -- and it is not the Roman Catholic Church. If God's answer to Mystic is, "Why yes, you should unite yourself with a religion." -- and that's a pretty big "if" -- then one does not simply jump to joining up with the Roman Catholic Church as the next logical step. Once God has told you that you should be part of a religion, your next step is to ask the obvious question, "Okay Lord, which one?"
Most folks confused religion with God. The Sola Scriptura folks think they are not religious, but they are even worse. God is a mystery!

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I'm very curious Julian, have you ever asked God that very question and left yourself open to the possibility that God would lead you somewhere other than Catholicism?
God has never spoken to me. If God spoke to me he was real subtle about it.


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There is a lot of good in the RCC, but there's also a lot of bad. I don't think the RCC encourages their members to be lazy in their personal relationship with Christ, but far too many Catholics that I have know tend to do so. Insofar as any religion brings you closer to Christ, it is a good thing. Insofar as it does not or even moves you further from Christ, it's a bad thing. Can you say for certain that the RCC would bring Mystic closer to Christ?
The church cannot be bad. What is bad are the people running the church. It is futile to discredit the church because in the end the GOOD overwhelms the bad.

A Sola Scriptura person in this forum put down a Catholic because he drove to church to pray. The Sola Scriptura said: "Why not pray at home?". And this is the difference between Catholics and independent Christians. The latter have no system to work with, no tradition, no culture.

The Church does not need to be perfect to enhance the human spirit. Perhaps the Catholic went to church because he believes Jesus is in the Tabernacle and that makes the prayer a much more genuine experience. Whether Jesus is in the Tabernacle or not is a moot point because religion is religion and religion can do whatever it wants. I am puzzled by the people that try to find ultimate truth when dealing with religion or seeking God. It is not that important to find that truth.
 
Old 04-25-2014, 04:36 PM
 
23,653 posts, read 17,424,754 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I am aware of the impact of Catholicism on the spiritual lives of its largely innocent members, Julian. I have said . . . God can draw straight lines even with a crooked stick. That does not make me accept the crooked stick as straight or of God.
MysticPhD---have you studied the Catholic mystic, Padre Pio?
 
Old 04-25-2014, 04:43 PM
 
23,653 posts, read 17,424,754 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
Sacrament is living every day in the consciousness of our relationship with God and man through Christ in the Way. No ceremonies required, but can enhance that experience as we invest it with meanin ourselves.... i.e. we get out of them what we put into them.

The sacraments are not ceremonies, they give us graces when we receive them. Can you give yourself a sacrament? Jesus wanted us to depend on each other or we could do everything for ourselves. I also can't do surgery on myself, I need a surgeon.
 
Old 04-25-2014, 04:52 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
17,071 posts, read 10,830,990 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janelle144 View Post
The sacraments are not ceremonies, they give us graces when we receive them. Can you give yourself a sacrament? Jesus wanted us to depend on each other or we could do everything for ourselves. I also can't do surgery on myself, I need a surgeon.
No, the sacraments are ceremonies and the only grace they give is a heightened awareness of what that grace is that we can live every day. If you are sick, go to a doctor, if you are living in love, the community of the saints is a great place to share how it is working for you. If a ceremony helps you envision what you already have, great, but it should never be a substitute for what you should be experiencing.
 
Old 04-25-2014, 05:55 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
12,688 posts, read 6,688,059 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
Thanks, but I am probably a very bad Catholic. I go to mass every Sunday and on days of obligation, but i have not been to confession in years. I don't have anything to confess!
Well you're doing something very right because you have one of the most important aspects of following Christ sorted: Loving and being charitable with others.

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Most folks confused religion with God. The Sola Scriptura folks think they are not religious, but they are even worse. God is a mystery!
I suppose that they have considerable disdain for organized religion. Unfortunately for you and yours, a ton of that disdain and bitterness has its roots in the very bad behavior of the RCC in past centuries. Many look at the entity that the Church used to be and say to themselves, "Clearly organized religion only leads to corruption and tyranny."

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God has never spoken to me. If God spoke to me he was real subtle about it.
To me, this is sad beyond words. The Roman Catholic Church isn't telling you not to create that direct relationship with God and Christ, right? Nothing about the RCC should restrain you that I'm aware of. The most fulfilling experience that you can ever have is to create and maintain that personal direct relationship with God. Often I find myself getting lazy in that relationship. Often it is just forgetfulness. Sometimes I feel unworthy. But in every case, when I go directly to God and renew that relationship, it is wonderful beyond description.

I can't claim to having open visions, but I have seen images/visions of great significance from time to time. Far more significant than that is experiencing God first hand. I know God is better than I know anything. It goes far beyond the traditional senses. Has God spoken to me? Occasionally, but in most cases communication from God comes in intense feelings. The whole universe just feels right. Complete. Hard to explain it. While enwrapped within that overwhelming peace/rightness, ideas and feelings just flow from God into me. It's more pure and more complete than written or spoken communication. You can put it into English, but I expect any mortal language utterly fails to convey the experience.

I can promise you that God works with you and everyone right where you are at. The process has become second nature to me at this point, but I know that it's difficult at first. You pray and then you stop and wait for answers. The answers are there, but you must exert yourself if you're not accustomed to it. It's very much like pushing against a real physical barrier using muscles that are within you but are not physical. That "muscle" gets stronger over time, so don't give up.

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The church cannot be bad. What is bad are the people running the church. It is futile to discredit the church because in the end the GOOD overwhelms the bad.
Of course the Church can be bad. Anything can be bad. Anyone claiming to have "the true religion of God" should have no tolerance for corruption and evil in that church. With compassion and love, they should do everything in their power to eliminate the bad while upholding the good. All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

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A Sola Scriptura person in this forum put down a Catholic because he drove to church to pray. The Sola Scriptura said: "Why not pray at home?". And this is the difference between Catholics and independent Christians. The latter have no system to work with, no tradition, no culture.

The Church does not need to be perfect to enhance the human spirit. Perhaps the Catholic went to church because he believes Jesus is in the Tabernacle and that makes the prayer a much more genuine experience. Whether Jesus is in the Tabernacle or not is a moot point because religion is religion and religion can do whatever it wants. I am puzzled by the people that try to find ultimate truth when dealing with religion or seeking God. It is not that important to find that truth.
Anybody can pray at home or at church or anywhere else. The puzzling thing is that Catholicism seems to have that very stigma: Her members seem to genuinely believe that praying at home or focusing on their relationship with God must only be done at church and cannot be done at home. Why can't it happen at home? Christ's direction was to pray always and pray everywhere. The culture of only praying at church definitely wouldn't work for me. I think we both know that the RCC doesn't actually teach you to never pray at home or anywhere but church, so that aspect of Catholic culture is extremely puzzling.

Tradition and system and culture are meaningless if you do not have Christ. There are Christians in ever denomination that have never bothered to reach out and that is such a tragedy, so much so that I would urge anyone to change religions if that's what it takes to wake them up. God wants to know us personally. That is a very big part of what life is all about.

You will never find a religion that is perfect because they are all operated by imperfect people. Ideally, the very best kind of religion gives each of it's members a maximum opportunity to participate, to get involved, to get off their posteriors and do some good and to make the greater whole better. A religion that just caters to "do nothing" Christians isn't very useful in my opinion.
 
Old 04-25-2014, 06:23 PM
 
12,030 posts, read 9,278,298 times
Reputation: 2845
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
Well you're doing something very right because you have one of the most important aspects of following Christ sorted: Loving and being charitable with others.
Thanks!

Quote:
I suppose that they have considerable disdain for organized religion. Unfortunately for you and yours, a ton of that disdain and bitterness has its roots in the very bad behavior of the RCC in past centuries. Many look at the entity that the Church used to be and say to themselves, "Clearly organized religion only leads to corruption and tyranny."
Everybody hates the biggest Christian Church in the world, it goes with the territory and it is fine. But, folks only focus on the bad stuff. Without the CC there is no Western Civilization or Christianity in the world. How about the preservation of knowledge by monks copying texts in the monasteries? Education? The foundation of the university system. The great Christian philosophers, art, music, architecture, etc. The very fabric of our cultural heritage is here because of the catholic Church. The vast majority of your culture can be traced to the Catholic Church. The list is very long.


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To me, this is sad beyond words. The Roman Catholic Church isn't telling you not to create that direct relationship with God and Christ, right? Nothing about the RCC should restrain you that I'm aware of. The most fulfilling experience that you can ever have is to create and maintain that personal direct relationship with God. Often I find myself getting lazy in that relationship. Often it is just forgetfulness. Sometimes I feel unworthy. But in every case, when I go directly to God and renew that relationship, it is wonderful beyond description.
The few mystic moments I had in my life have to do with the church. By myself I am not that motivated; however the long standing traditions of the church feed my spirit in a positive manner.


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Anybody can pray at home or at church or anywhere else. The puzzling thing is that Catholicism seems to have that very stigma: Her members seem to genuinely believe that praying at home or focusing on their relationship with God must only be done at church and cannot be done at home. Why can't it happen at home? Christ's direction was to pray always and pray everywhere. The culture of only praying at church definitely wouldn't work for me. I think we both know that the RCC doesn't actually teach you to never pray at home or anywhere but church, so that aspect of Catholic culture is extremely puzzling.
For the love of God! Catholics can pray anywhere. Where does that myth come from? However, entering church and knowing that Jesus is there in the Tabernacle is a much greater mystical experience than staying at home. This is the part that solo people/Sola Scriptura miss completely. I guess they like to fly solo.

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Tradition and system and culture are meaningless if you do not have Christ.
Why not have both? How can you function in a vacuum with no traditions? I don't know anyone that can pull this off. You would have to literally live in a bubble with tinted windows. I bet your life is full of traditions.



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God wants to know us personally. That is a very big part of what life is all about.
God knows me and everybody else quite well. That is why God is God.


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You will never find a religion that is perfect because they are all operated by imperfect people. Ideally, the very best kind of religion gives each of it's members a maximum opportunity to participate, to get involved, to get off their posteriors and do some good and to make the greater whole better. A religion that just caters to "do nothing" Christians isn't very useful in my opinion.
I have said at nauseam there is no perfect religion. And that is the problem with most independent Christians that are in a search for perfection. That is why there is so little difference between some atheists and Sola Scriptura folks. They seek perfection at all times and that is unattainable. So they end up atheists or bible literalists.
 
Old 04-25-2014, 06:53 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
12,688 posts, read 6,688,059 times
Reputation: 6593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
For the love of God! Catholics can pray anywhere. Where does that myth come from? However, entering church and knowing that Jesus is there in the Tabernacle is a much greater mystical experience than staying at home. This is the part that solo people/Sola Scriptura miss completely. I guess they like to fly solo.
I never said it was a teaching of the RCC. Quite the opposite from what I can tell. It's just a cultural thing. Some Catholics ignore the words of Christ telling them to pray always and to pray everywhere. The Church isn't telling them not to pray. They are just choosing not to. Why? I have no clue. General laziness I guess. But it's become something of a Roman Catholic culture from what I've seen. No clue if it's just Catholics in the USA or if it's Catholics everywhere. I don't think that's a good thing.

Anyways, we're wandering off topic at this point, but it's interesting nonetheless.
 
Old 04-25-2014, 07:00 PM
 
12,030 posts, read 9,278,298 times
Reputation: 2845
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
I never said it was a teaching of the RCC. Quite the opposite from what I can tell. It's just a cultural thing. Some Catholics ignore the words of Christ telling them to pray always and to pray everywhere. The Church isn't telling them not to pray. They are just choosing not to. Why? I have no clue. General laziness I guess. But it's become something of a Roman Catholic culture from what I've seen. No clue if it's just Catholics in the USA or if it's Catholics everywhere. I don't think that's a good thing.

Anyways, we're wandering off topic at this point, but it's interesting nonetheless.
OK, in my case I don't pray at home. At most I may have a thought or two. I may say a 10 sec prayer when I get to church. I most give thanks and ask for the well being of my family. That is it!

If there is a beautiful song or a well done Ave maria in a wedding I may get mystic for 1-2 secs.

However, other Catholics are very pious.
 
Old 04-26-2014, 12:04 AM
 
23,653 posts, read 17,424,754 times
Reputation: 7467
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
No, the sacraments are ceremonies and the only grace they give is a heightened awareness of what that grace is that we can live every day. If you are sick, go to a doctor, if you are living in love, the community of the saints is a great place to share how it is working for you. If a ceremony helps you envision what you already have, great, but it should never be a substitute for what you should be experiencing.
You can baptize yourself? I never heard of it. Can you receive communion on your own? Of course, I have grace but why not receive it over an over in the sacraments, etc? Receive a good thing as much as you can. It strengthens you.
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