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Of course it does. I gave it to you in English. But that' what it say's in the scripture. Mary and Joseph had sex. It's a closed issue. No discussion needed. The Roman church has been proven wrong and that's all there is to it. If you cannot accept the facts then you are living in a fantasy world.
Ecclesiastes 9:4-6," 4For whoever is joined with all the living, there is hope; surely a live dog is better than a dead lion. 5For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten. 6Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun."
Of course it does. I gave it to you in English. But that' what it say's in the scripture. Mary and Joseph had sex. It's a closed issue. No discussion needed. The Roman church has been proven wrong and that's all there is to it. If you cannot accept the facts then you are living in a fantasy world.
Actually the virginity of Mary post Jesus is not a biggy for me. I have been to mass a lot and never heard the priest talk about the perpetual virginity of Mary. That is one topic that does not come up during mass. The homily is about how to be a good Christian by following the teachings of Jesus.
There are many more things in Christianity that are a 1000 times more difficult to believe that a woman that decides to remain a virgin after delivering the son of God. Ia m very thankful you are not Sola Scriptura or you would believe a lot of the mythology of the OT.
Of course it does. I gave it to you in English. But that' what it say's in the scripture. Mary and Joseph had sex.
It does NOT say that at all. It says that they did not have sex at any time before the birth of Christ. The Bible makes NO statement at all about what happened after the birth of Christ. It is an outright lie to claim that such a statement appears in Scripture.
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It's a closed issue. No discussion needed.
It is a closed issue with no discussion needed because the words are there on the page, they can be plainly read by any honest person, and they say NOTHING about any act that took place after the birth of Christ. However, for some reason you keep claiming that there is a statement there about what happened after the birth of Christ. There is no such statement, and to claim there is one is to utter a falsehood.
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The Roman church has been proven wrong and that's all there is to it.
It has NOT been proven wrong. You are the one who has been proven wrong, and what is more, you have been proven not only to be dishonest, but to be someone who misrepresents what is or is not in the Bible. And while we are at it, if you think the Catholic Church is so "wrong", why do you use the Catholic Church's canon of the New Testament? Who else do you think determined those books were to be regarded as inspired Scripture -- because you and Pastor Joe Bob, or whoever rants at you on Sundays, didn't do it on your own!
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If you cannot accept the facts then you are living in a fantasy world.
Go read that sentence out loud while looking at yourself in a mirror.
You know it's a very serious charge to call someone a liar
It is a very serious, and very bad, thing to be one -- but the description is correct: anyone who claims that the Gospel of Matthew explicitly states "Mary and Joseph had sexual relations after the birth of Jesus" is a liar, because there is no such statement anywhere in the Bible.
Do you acknowledge that there is no such statement? Or will you support the dishonest and mendacious claim that such a statement can be found in Scripture?
In other words, does the truth matter to you, or not?
The bible say's Joseph and Mary did not have sex UNTIL after the birth of Jesus. This means they had sex after the birth of Jesus. That is what it say's. I cannot help what it says or your refusal to admit the obvious facts. You are trying to deny a plain fact. I cannot help one who refuses to see what is in front of them. I can only declare the truth. And the truth is that the bible say's Joseph and Mary had sex after Jesus was born. It is undeniable.
It does NOT say that at all. It says that they did not have sex at any time before the birth of Christ. The Bible makes NO statement at all about what happened after the birth of Christ. It is an outright lie to claim that such a statement appears in Scripture.
It is a closed issue with no discussion needed because the words are there on the page, they can be plainly read by any honest person, and they say NOTHING about any act that took place after the birth of Christ. However, for some reason you keep claiming that there is a statement there about what happened after the birth of Christ. There is no such statement, and to claim there is one is to utter a falsehood.
It has NOT been proven wrong. You are the one who has been proven wrong, and what is more, you have been proven not only to be dishonest, but to be someone who misrepresents what is or is not in the Bible. And while we are at it, if you think the Catholic Church is so "wrong", why do you use the Catholic Church's canon of the New Testament? Who else do you think determined those books were to be regarded as inspired Scripture -- because you and Pastor Joe Bob, or whoever rants at you on Sundays, didn't do it on your own!
Go read that sentence out loud while looking at yourself in a mirror.
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Originally Posted by GreenWhiteBlue
It is a very serious, and very bad, thing to be one -- but the description is correct: anyone who claims that the Gospel of Matthew explicitly states "Mary and Joseph had sexual relations after the birth of Jesus" is a liar, because there is no such statement anywhere in the Bible.
Do you acknowledge that there is no such statement? Or will you support the dishonest and mendacious claim that such a statement can be found in Scripture?
In other words, does the truth matter to you, or not?
Did Jesus have any half-brothers or sisters?
Or do you think, it's merely metaphorical?
BTW - was James in essence the first Pope, or successor to Christ?
I know the opposite is true: you have made a false statement, and scripture does not prove you right.
This is an outright lie.
I do have a Bible, and I can read. What is more, I can read Greek, which is the language the New Testament is written in. Can you?
Physician, heal thyself! YOU are the one unable to understand the meaning of the words you read, and YOU are the one who is listening to a cult leader who is telling you what you must believe about blatantly inaccurate translations of Scripture.
Except the NIV isn't the original text, is it? I already addressed this verse in post 90 of this very thread, and I shall quote myself:
The original Greek is
καὶ οὐκ ἐγίνωσκεν αὐτὴν ἕως οὗ ἔτεκεν υἱόν καὶ ἐκάλεσεν τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Ἰησοῦν
Do you see that word "heos", which gets translated as "till"? What does it really mean? Since it is abundantly clear to me that you don't know, I will tell you: it signifies the end point in time of something you are talking about, but it says nothing about what occurs next. For example, you find the same word "heos" used the same way in 2 Samuel 6:23, which in the Septuagint reads
καὶ οὐκ ἐγίνωσκεν αὐτὴν ἕως οὗ ἔτεκεν υἱόν καὶ ἐκάλεσεν τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Ἰησοῦν
"And Michal the daughter of Saul gave birth to no child till the day of her death." Do you really think that Michal started giving birth to children AFTER the day of her death?????? No, that "till" means "all the way up to that time", but does not indicate anything about what followed.
Here is another: in the Septuagint, Psalm 109 (110) begins:
ΕΙΠΕΝ ὁ Κύριος τῷ Κυρίῳ μου· κάθου ἐκ δεξιῶν μου, ἕως ἂν θῶ τοὺς ἐχθρούς σου ὑποπόδιον τῶν ποδῶν σου.
"The LORD says to my lord: "Sit at my right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool."
This verse refers to Christ. Do you really think that he will not ALWAYS sit at the right hand of the Father, even after his enemies are destroyed?????? Do you think that after his enemies are overcome, he will no longer be next to his Father??????
Matthew's gospel ends (Matt 28:20) with Jesus telling his followers:
καὶ ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ μεθ’ ὑμῶν εἰμι πάσας τὰς ἡμέρας ἕως τῆς συντελείας τοῦ αἰῶνος
"and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age." In your vain attempt to defend your indefensible position, are you going to claim that this means that after the end of the world, Jesus will NO LONGER be with us?
In the case of Matthew 1:25, the verse is telling us that at no time before the birth of Jesus did Joseph have any relations with Mary, so that the child could not possibly be anything other than miraculously born of a virgin. However, you cannot then infer anything about what happened next, let alone claim that what was previously indicated has now changed; the word "heos" simply does not work that way.
While you may think you are justified in imagining something about the relationship between Mary and Joseph, there is nothing in the plain text of the gospel that supports your claim. To say that there is, and to claim falsely and repeatedly that a verse of scripture explicitly says that Mary and Joseph had sexual relations, is untrue, dishonest, and profoundly wrong.
Sooo...Tell me...How did Yeshua have siblings then?...
Sooo...Tell me...How did Yeshua have siblings then?...
He seems to have trouble with facts and what words mean in context. The scripture say that Joseph and Mary had sex after Jesus was born, and that of course is how the siblings came to be.
I do not understand why these people believe Mary was such a sinful person that she would disobey God by not fulfilling her duties as a wife. But then some of them call a wife "slutty" so perhaps that tells you something about their moral fabric.
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