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You state that Constantine (circa A.D. 280-337) was more than anyone responsible for Christianity spreading to all corners of the earth. But let's see what Irenaeus wrote in 'Against Heresies' which was written before Constantine was even born.
Irenaeus - Against Heresies Book 1, chapter 10. (Est. range of writing A.D.175-185)
Chapter X.-Unity of the Faith of the Church Throughout the Whole World.
1. The Church, though dispersed through our the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father "to gather all things in one," and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, "every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess" to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send "spiritual wickednesses," and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some from the beginning [of their Christian course], and others from [the date of] their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory. [Bolding mine] Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies / Adversus Haereses, Book 1 (Roberts-Donaldson translation)
I fail to see how Irenaeus enters into the discussion.
I do not dispute the idea that Christianity was "spreading like wildfire" throughout the known world in the 300 years after Jesus. What I try to show is that Christianity was in contest with a plethora of other deities circulating at the same time that had their own cult of followers. Surely you do not dispute this. I listed some of the deities jockeying for position in my OP.
The task before Constantine was to sort through all these deities and come up with a central figure that would be "top God" to unify his empire, while at the same time satisfying a whole host of pagans at the council who were trying to make their own "god" the top dog. Krishnas wanted Krishna appointed; Christos is the Greek version of the word Krishna ("anointed one"); Romans wanted Julius Caesar, who was being worshiped as a god at the time---all Caesars were being worshiped; Druids wanted Hesus, their version of Jesus, appointed, and so on and so on.
Constantine had to satisfy all these "ekklesia" delegates at the council representing their own "churches". The only way he could accomplish this was to make an amalgamation of several of the gods, including the one true God.
What I have said cast no insults on Jesus nor did I deny Jesus in any way. I merely pointed out how the image we have of Jesus today partly grew out of the compromise Constantine struck with the members of the Nicaen Council.
2ndpillar makes a lot of good points which I will address in my next post.
I never touched on the gospels themselves, though one of the links I provided did. My sole aim was to demonstrate how history records that Constantine's choice for Jesus Christ as the official God for the Roman empire had so many political underpinnings to it that we can never fully understand nor appreciate exactly what went on in this council. However, all the shenanigans notwithstanding, it doesn't negate the truth of Contantine having to meld numerous gods into one, Jesus Christ nor does it negate the fact that Jesus Christ lived, or that he was the Messiah, or that He rose from the dead. All that is incidental to the dilemma Constantine faced in having to find a practical solution to a mob of pagan clergy that were threatening to tear his newly-formed empire apart, all of whom were jockeying and currying political favor with Constantine to get their god chosen as the official "god".
Constantine made a series of brilliant concessions, tradeoffs, and other skullduggeries to get Jesus Christ at the top of the ballot. He, more than anyone else, history shows, is responsible for Christianity spreading to all corners of the earth.
In this sense he may have been Christianity's "greatest" apostle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
You state that Constantine (circa A.D. 280-337) was more than anyone responsible for Christianity spreading to all corners of the earth. But let's see what Irenaeus wrote in 'Against Heresies' which was written before Constantine was even born.
Irenaeus - Against Heresies Book 1, chapter 10. (Est. range of writing A.D.175-185)
Chapter X.-Unity of the Faith of the Church Throughout the Whole World.
1. The Church, though dispersed through our the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father "to gather all things in one," and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, "every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess" to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send "spiritual wickednesses," and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some from the beginning [of their Christian course], and others from [the date of] their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory. [Bolding mine] Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies / Adversus Haereses, Book 1 (Roberts-Donaldson translation)
Christianity was already wide spread long before the time of Constantine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
I fail to see how Irenaeus enters into the discussion.
I do not dispute the idea that Christianity was "spreading like wildfire" throughout the known world in the 300 years after Jesus. What I try to show is that Christianity was in contest with a plethora of other deities circulating at the same time that had their own cult of followers. Surely you do not dispute this. I listed some of the deities jockeying for position in my OP.
The task before Constantine was to sort through all these deities and come up with a central figure that would be "top God" to unify his empire, while at the same time satisfying a whole host of pagans at the council who were trying to make their own "god" the top dog. Krishnas wanted Krishna appointed; Christos is the Greek version of the word Krishna ("anointed one"); Romans wanted Julius Caesar, who was being worshiped as a god at the time---all Caesars were being worshiped; Druids wanted Hesus, their version of Jesus, appointed, and so on and so on.
Constantine had to satisfy all these "ekklesia" delegates at the council representing their own "churches". The only way he could accomplish this was to make an amalgamation of several of the gods, including the one true God.
What I have said cast no insults on Jesus nor did I deny Jesus in any way. I merely pointed out how the image we have of Jesus today partly grew out of the compromise Constantine struck with the members of the Nicaen Council.
2ndpillar makes a lot of good points which I will address in my next post.
Your claim - ''He, (referring to Constantine) more than anyone else, history shows, is responsible for Christianity spreading to all corners of the earth.''
Your claim is false as Irenaeus' statement shows. That is how Irenaeus enters into the discussion.
As for 2nd pillar, he falsely claims that the apostle Paul was a false teacher who taught a false gospel. From post #18.
''While "Christianity" has little to do with the teachings of Yeshua, its' foundation were present before Constantine established the state church. Paul's false gospel of grace, along with his bevy of followers, were present long before Constantine. Constantine simply glorified Peter and Paul by building them basilicas, and this most likely because of his mother's insistance. Paul provided the false gospel, and Peter supposedly provided a false foundational substitution.''
Paul was chosen by God to be an apostle to the Gentiles. He fulfilled his mission.
Last edited by Michael Way; 05-13-2014 at 02:51 PM..
Your claim - ''He, (referring to Constantine) more than anyone else, history shows, is responsible for Christianity spreading to all corners of the earth.''
Your claim is false as Irenaeus' statement shows. That is how Irenaeus enters into the discussion.
As for 2nd pillar, he falsely claims that the apostle Paul was a false teacher who taught a false gospel. From post #18.
''While "Christianity" has little to do with the teachings of Yeshua, its' foundation were present before Constantine established the state church. Paul's false gospel of grace, along with his bevy of followers, were present long before Constantine. Constantine simply glorified Peter and Paul by building them basilicas, and this most likely because of his mother's insistance. Paul provided the false gospel, and Peter supposedly provided a false foundational substitution.''
Paul was chosen by God to be an apostle to the Gentiles. He fulfilled his mission.
Don`t believe that Julius Caesar has anything to do with Lord Jesus or that the early church did any of this thing you say it did
Dear hljc,
Julius Caesar was deified by the Roman Senate. Julius Caesar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia As the 5th head of the beast of Revelation 17:10, while Caesar was ruling with Pompey and Crassus, Pompey conquered Jerusalem, and descecrated the temple. Later, Julius Caesar ruled alone for 42 months, and was slain, and according to Revelation 13:3-5, his fatal wound was healed. His reign continued under the 10 horns of his successors, under his name, Augustus Caesar, and the 10th horn of succession, emperor Titus, conquered Jerusalem again, and destroyed the temple and desecrated its site.
Constantine also was considered a god king, as were all the other Augustus Caesars. He was the 7th head of the beast. We are now in the end times, and in the age of the 8th head of the beast. (Rev 17:11)
All the Roman emperors from Julius Caesar (63 BC) through Constantine, took the position of the pagan high priest, which was Pontifex Maximus. It is the position of high priest of the pagan gods and calendar. The position is now held by the Pope. Pontifex Maximus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The dragon gives authority to the beast (Rev 13:2). This is how the "ruler of the world" rules. This is how "those who dwell on the earth" are deceived (Rev 13:14).
"Trust in the Lord with all your heart; and lean not unto your own understanding". (Proverbs 3:5)
This verse sums it up for all true Christians.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
Don't hide behind cutesy little Christian platitudes to bolster your faith. Confront the dirt head on. It will make you a stronger Christian or it will break you. But you will be challenged, unless you choose to run and bury your head in the sand as so many Christians do when confronted with the bald truth.
I apologize for failing to insert the sarcasm emoticon into my response post. I was hoping that after several years of communicating with you on this board that I didn't need it, but I seem to have been mistaken.
Dear thrill,
I think you have overlooked the most important personage in the final pick of Constantine. All Constantine wanted was consolidation of power with the amagalmation of the number of resident religious entities into one unifying state established organization. It was his mother who was probably the most important element in the final decision he made.
Thanks much for your very cogent observations about all this, pillar. I have no doubts that many of Constantine's relatives had a lot of advice to offer him about how to best attack this thorny issue of which god to make the official god of his empire. I seriously doubt he had any idea how momentous his decision was or how it would echo through the next two millennia in terms of how powerful the Christian grew as a result of his choice. Mike555 points out that his belief is that Christianity would have grown to where it is today irrespective of Constantine's choice. I disagree. Had Constantine picked Krishna I believe we'd all be walking around in knee-length muslin gown with finger cymbals chanting "Harikrishna".
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2ndpillar
While "Christianity" has little to do with the teachings of Yeshua, its' foundation were present before Constantine established the state church. Paul's false gospel of grace, along with his bevy of followers, were present long before Constantine. Constantine simply glorified Peter and Paul by building them basilicas, and this most likely because of his mother's insistance. Paul provided the false gospel, and Peter supposedly provided a false foundational substitution.
I agree that Paul taught a gospel vastly different from Jesus'. Whereas Jesus emphasis was on works in Mark, Luke and Matthew, it isn't until John some 60 years after Jesus' death that Jesus finally starts talking about His divinity and the equal importance of believing He is God and that non-belief will earn the infidel a spot in eternal fire. Of course Paul was the first to throw away the importance of works and to base salvation entirely on faith, so a fiend like Hitler could kill 6 million Jews, repent on his deathbed and march into heaven without nary a scorch of hell's flame while "saints" like Mother Teresa would be tossed into hell the moment they died if they hadn't profess belief in Jesus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2ndpillar
As for how was Constantine able to deceive "those who dwell on the earth"(Rev 13:14), he was the 7th head of the beast of Rev 17:10, the one that "has not yet come" (Rev 17:11), and also he was the beast with two horns like a lamb of Rev 13:11, whose two lamb like horns were Peter and Paul. Constantine was also the beast of Daniel 7:24-25, who was to "intend to make alterations in the times and the Law.", in as much as in 321 AD he changed the day of rest from the Sabbath to the "day of the sun", by decree.
I have no problem with however anyone interprets Revelation. It is indecipherable to me so one person's interpretation is as good as the next.
Ever wonder who you have to thank that you are a Bible-believing Christian today?
Hint: It's not Jesus Christ or Paul or any of the apostles or any of the gospel writers or any of the early church forefathers.
It's one man: Emperor Constantine.
That's right. Without Constantine Christianity might have been relegated to one of the hundreds of obscure backwater religions circulating in the first 300 years after Jesus' death. It was Constantine and his infamous "Council of Nicaea" who "invented" Christianity by sorting through hundreds of gods
brought before him as candidates for who would be the "official" god of the Roman Empire.
By an extremely clever series of political maneuverings, favor buying, negotiations among a rabble of "church leaders" who were no more than ignorant peasants with "wild texts, gospels, epistles, legends, myths" that became the riot of scriptures upon which the future Bible would have to be based
In a thumbnail:
So history records how Jesus Christ was a conglomerate of Julius Caesar, Krishna, and a little known Druid god, Hesus to placate Constantine's pagan subjects in Britain, often pictured as a "shepherd with a staff in one hand and a lamb in the other.
This is history, folks---not the "sanitized" versions we hear from the pulpits of Christian preachers (if they even bother to touch on this topic) but the actual cold, hard facts as recorded by the best historians of the age.
A few links gives more details of how Christianity actually came about.
NOTE: I have no wish to try to "destroy" Christianity as many accuse me off. My sole interest has always been to uncover the "truth", regardless of how offensive or uncomfortable that truth might be.
If you're interested in getting a different view--one you've never been told about--read the two links above before posting insults.
Very interesting articles...Does this make you an Atheist?...Be honest...
I never touched on the gospels themselves, though one of the links I provided did. My sole aim was to demonstrate how history records that Constantine's choice for Jesus Christ as the official God for the Roman empire had so many political underpinnings to it that we can never fully understand nor appreciate exactly what went on in this council. However, all the shenanigans notwithstanding, it doesn't negate the truth of Contantine having to meld numerous gods into one, Jesus Christ nor does it negate the fact that Jesus Christ lived, or that he was the Messiah, or that He rose from the dead. All that is incidental to the dilemma Constantine faced in having to find a practical solution to a mob of pagan clergy that were threatening to tear his newly-formed empire apart, all of whom were jockeying and currying political favor with Constantine to get their god chosen as the official "god".
Constantine made a series of brilliant concessions, tradeoffs, and other skullduggeries to get Jesus Christ at the top of the ballot. He, more than anyone else, history shows, is responsible for Christianity spreading to all corners of the earth.
In this sense he may have been Christianity's "greatest" apostle.
I think Mike only reads and holds as truth that which agrees with him...
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