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"Sanctification refers to how a redeemed (born again) person is ultimately made “holy” and acceptable to God; it is a necessary part of the salvationprocess since God’s holiness limits the relationship he can have with sinful men." Understanding the Biblical Doctrine of Sanctification --Sam A. Smith
"Like justification, sanctification is an essential part of the overall work of salvation." Untitled Document
"According to the broadest meaning as used in Scripture, the term salvation encompasses the total work of God by which He seeks to rescue man from the ruin, doom, and power of sin and bestows upon him the wealth of His grace encompassing eternal life, provision for abundant life now, and eternal glory (Eph. 1:3-8; 2:4-10; 1 Pet. 1:3-5; John 3:16, 36; 10:10)...
The word “salvation” communicates the thought of deliverance, safety, preservation, soundness, restoration, and healing. In theology, however, its major use is to denote a work of God on behalf of men, and as such it is a major doctrine of the Bible which includes redemption, reconciliation, propitiation, conviction, repentance, faith, regeneration, forgiveness, justification, sanctification, preservation, and glorification." https://bible.org/article/soteriolog...rine-salvation
Thankyou Pleroo. Perhaps I confused people by calling salvation a process, but I tend to lump it all together - salvation/sanctification/being made righteous - being fully healed. It is a process. Depends how you define the individual words.
We can say we are saved yet we still die. The old man must die. The physical will die. But it is the spiritual that is maturing. The spiritual is what matters.
Oh yeah, I forgot about the verse where it says that! Oh wait...it doesn't exist and even the word "Hate" in referring to Esau can be translated as "love less" and Esau in this context may be referring to the Nation of Edom ...But I must have forgotten about the verse that says Vizio's has the ability to read God mind and tell who is in hell or isn't! ...oh wait...that's nonsense...and even another conservative Christian like Norman Geisler disagrees with you: Does God Really Hate Esau? | Tough Questions Answered
Exactly you are quite right it doesn't say anywhere that Esau is in hell. Nevermind that it also says God hates all sinners, yet He still loved sinners to send His son to save them. So to say that "God hates Esau", means Esau is in hell, simply does not follow.
Paul didn't say that God simply prefers Jacob. It says that God hated Esau.
Yes just like God hates all sinners. Yet He saves them. He sent His son to save them all. Imagine that kind of hate. Sounds like love - which is what God is.
Quote:
And yes--Esau is in hell.
That's mighty presumptuous of you. There is no verse that says such a thing. Unless by "hell" you mean the grave. Then I could agree with you - Esau is in the grave right now.
How do you draw such conclusions about God hating Esau when we are also told God hates sinners, yet He loved those very same sinners enough to send His son to save them?
Or are you one of those Calvinists who believe that God only loves some people (and will always love those people), and the rest He hates and will never do anything less than hate them?
Do you realize the ramifications of your belief system? Do you teach this at your church?
Essentially: God preferred that Esau would burn eternally, and that is God's right. And God is just to create Esau for that purpose. Does that make sense? Is that what you believe?
This should be unbelievable to you. It is to me. Its irrational. It sounds more like a description of a demonic being, who creates just to torture. How could this picture of God be in any way described as good and just? And with respect to the thread, how is that in any way compatible with love? Have you really thought about this? Scripture does not describe what you are saying.
Love, justice, and holiness are not mutually exclusive.
Visio, I hope you don't take offense to this or take anything personally. I'm just trying to get you to see the absurdity of it.
Uh-oh - you went to bible.org - that just took your street cred down a few notches amongst your cohorts.
Regarding salvation being done, note...
Colossians 3:1-4 - Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. 3 For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.
Ephesians 2:4-8 - But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
The underlined are past tense terms, indicating an act is completed. Salvation is complete in Christ.
Sanctification...
Romans 6:19 - I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.
Thinking about it for a minute, the one thing you can say is that salvation will be realized when sanctification is complete. In other words, the receipt of the Holy Spirit through faith is the initial act that joins us to Christ, and it is starts the sanctification process. Salvation is complete in position and promise - but it has not been fully realized until we are in His presence. Hopefully that makes sense.
Colossians 3:1-4 - Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. 3 For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.
Ephesians 2:4-8 - But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
The underlined are past tense terms, indicating an act is completed. Salvation is complete in Christ.
God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;
and ... I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.'
From God's view, apparently, the deed is done. In our experience, it is not complete. Which goes to what you say below.
Quote:
Sanctification...
Romans 6:19 - I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.
Thinking about it for a minute, the one thing you can say is that salvation will be realized when sanctification is complete. In other words, the receipt of the Holy Spirit through faith is the initial act that joins us to Christ, and it is starts the sanctification process. Salvation is complete in position and promise - but it has not been fully realized until we are in His presence. Hopefully that makes sense.
I understand what you're saying (I see some things differently, but they don't bear on the topic at hand.) You are essentially then agreeing that there is a process involved.
So, what were we arguing about then?
Last edited by Pleroo; 06-13-2014 at 05:55 PM..
Reason: Yikes ... how'd all that get in there? lol
I understand what you're saying (I see some things differently, but they don't bear on the topic at hand.) You are essentially then agreeing that there is a process involved.
So, what were we arguing about then?
Whether or not you are going to answer my other question...
Yes just like God hates all sinners. Yet He saves them. He sent His son to save them all. Imagine that kind of hate. Sounds like love - which is what God is.
That's mighty presumptuous of you. There is no verse that says such a thing. Unless by "hell" you mean the grave. Then I could agree with you - Esau is in the grave right now.
How do you draw such conclusions about God hating Esau when we are also told God hates sinners, yet He loved those very same sinners enough to send His son to save them?
Or are you one of those Calvinists who believe that God only loves some people (and will always love those people), and the rest He hates and will never do anything less than hate them?
Do you realize the ramifications of your belief system? Do you teach this at your church?
Essentially: God preferred that Esau would burn eternally, and that is God's right. And God is just to create Esau for that purpose. Does that make sense? Is that what you believe?
This should be unbelievable to you. It is to me. Its irrational. It sounds more like a description of a demonic being, who creates just to torture. How could this picture of God be in any way described as good and just? And with respect to the thread, how is that in any way compatible with love? Have you really thought about this? Scripture does not describe what you are saying.
Love, justice, and holiness are not mutually exclusive.
Visio, I hope you don't take offense to this or take anything personally. I'm just trying to get you to see the absurdity of it.
You can't neglect God's nature in the discussion. Some things are irrational to me and you, but not to God.
I am not saying that personally God has a personal hate for people. However, the Father's nature is such that He must separate Himself from any instance of sin. He has done everything in His power to save everyone because He does not want people to perish.
Here's the issue. He has done everything to make salvation available for people of earth. Unbelief in God is sin. So if people leave the earth not believing in God - which is sin - and God must separate Himself from sin because that's His nature - how is it ever possible for those to have their sin removed and not face the coming judgment?
You can't neglect God's nature in the discussion. Some things are irrational to me and you, but not to God.
I am not saying that personally God has a personal hate for people. However, the Father's nature is such that He must separate Himself from any instance of sin. He has done everything in His power to save everyone because He does not want people to perish.
Here's the issue. He has done everything to make salvation available for people of earth. Unbelief in God is sin. So if people leave the earth not believing in God - which is sin - and God must separate Himself from sin because that's His nature - how is it ever possible for those to have their sin removed and not face the coming judgment?
In other words, your contention is that humanity as a whole is incapable of loving - because they may not believe the Bible?
Separation comes from the perceptions of men, not the Spirit itself; and there are many who have a loving Spirit!
Nowhere has the Spirit of life, ever separated itself from the lives of humanity - which includes that of the Christ.
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Oh wait...it doesn't exist and even the word "Hate" in referring to Esau can be translated as "love less" and Esau in this context may be referring to the Nation of Edom ...But I must have forgotten about the verse that says Vizio's has the ability to read God mind and tell who is in hell or isn't! 
He sent His son to save them all. Imagine that kind of hate. Sounds like love - which is what God is.
Good one.
