Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 06-03-2014, 01:57 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,932 posts, read 26,160,446 times
Reputation: 16087

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA View Post
Christians only have one Country God's Kingdom through Christ. That is part of what accepting Jesus as your Lord means. He IS King.

he told us we an only serve one Master, so it is Christ or a Nation but nor both. Serving a Nation leads to killing or sharing in the killing of Christ's brothers and other innocents, thus killing Christ.
Conscientious objection is mentioned in the article, to appeal to "both" sides.

You support a Nation, you are supporting that Nations ruler, Satan. Christ does not rule any human nation, he will destroy them.

Our obedience is limited, remember Peter's words. "we must obey God as ruler rather than men". Two choices; God through Christ's Kingdom or Satan through Man's. Look at the laws every Country has passed in direct contradiction to Gods's clear wishes. That is following Satan's wishes.
No, Christians do not have only one Country. Believers have a dual citizenship. While Phil:3:7 says that the believer's citizenship is in heaven, the believer is also a citizen of whatever nation he lives in and he has a duty to that country. As Paul said in Romans 13, the believer is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. Now if the law of man conflicts with the law of God then the believer must obey God rather than man, but serving in the military does not conflict with God's will. A study of the Old Testament makes that clear.

One of the purposes of the Book of Daniel is to emphasize God's sovereign authority over Gentile nations, and how He establishes and deposes kings and empires to serve His purpose (Dan. 4:17,25,32). Jesus told Pilate that his authority had been given him from above (John 19:11).

God ordained that there be nations. This is clear from both Deut. 32:8 and Acts 17:26.
Deut. 32:8 "When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, When He separated the sons of man, He set the boundaries of the peoples According to the number of the sons of Israel.

Acts 17:26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,
God ordained nations, He raises and disposes rulers, and the believer is to be in subjection to the governing authorities when it does not oppose God's laws. The military is ordained by God for the protection of a nation from hostile nations. There is such a thing as a just war.

Jesus' rule in the Millennial kingdom will be a universal rule, but nations will still exist. And Jesus will rule them with a rod of iron. Psalm 72 and Zechariah 14 refer to the Millennial kingdom.
Psalm 72:11 And let all kings bow down before Him, All nations serve Him.

Zechariah 14:18 If the family of Egypt does not go up or enter, then no rain will fall on them; it will be the plague with which the LORD smites the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths. 19] This will be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-03-2014, 02:27 PM
 
18,172 posts, read 16,267,885 times
Reputation: 9325
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No, Christians do not have only one Country. Believers have a dual citizenship. While Phil:3:7 says that the believer's citizenship is in heaven, the believer is also a citizen of whatever nation he lives in and he has a duty to that country. As Paul said in Romans 13, the believer is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. Now if the law of man conflicts with the law of God then the believer must obey God rather than man, but serving in the military does not conflict with God's will. A study of the Old Testament makes that clear.
The OT was for ... Israel and war was used to form and to protect it. Uniquely if Israel went to war without God 's explicit blessing, it lost.

Quote:
One of the purposes of the Book of Daniel is to emphasize God's sovereign authority over Gentile nations, and how He establishes and deposes kings and empires to serve His purpose (Dan. 4:17,25,32). Jesus told Pilate that his authority had been given him from above (John 19:11).

God ordained that there be nations. This is clear from both Deut. 32:8 and Acts 17:26.
Deut. 32:8 "When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, When He separated the sons of man, He set the boundaries of the peoples According to the number of the sons of Israel.

Acts 17:26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,
God ordained nations, He raises and disposes rulers, and the believer is to be in subjection to the governing authorities when it does not oppose God's laws. The military is ordained by God for the protection of a nation from hostile nations. There is such a thing as a just war.
The just war doctrine came in long after Christians left paying attention to God's word. It was devised by man (Augustine) to allow war.

God disposes without His servants fighting. Daniel plainly shows that, as Babylon fell, releasing the Israelites, with only the efforts of pagan men.

Quote:
Jesus' rule in the Millennial kingdom will be a universal rule, but nations will still exist. And Jesus will rule them with a rod of iron. Psalm 72 and Zechariah 14 refer to the Millennial kingdom
The Nations/Rulership are destroyed at the beginning of that rule. "Nations" also refers to people, not just governments.
Quote:
Psalm 72:11
Quote:
And let all kings bow down before Him, All nations serve Him.
Yes, but not those old kings nor the existing ones. Rather these:

ASV Revelation 5:10 and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth.

The nations are these people:

KJV Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

1484 ethnos {eth'-nos}
Meaning: 1) a multitude (whether of men or of beasts) associated or living together 1a) a company, troop, swarm 2) a multitude of individuals of the same nature or genus 2a) the human race 3) a race, nation, people group 4) in the OT, foreign nations not worshipping the true God, pagans, Gentiles 5) Paul uses the term for Gentile Christians

Note Paul uses it of gentile Christians not nations/rulers as none existed then that were even close to being Christian Nations.

What is your ethnicity? That is what is meant.


Quote:
Zechariah 14:18
Quote:
If the family of Egypt does not go up or enter, then no rain will fall on them; it will be the plague with which the LORD smites the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths. 19] This will be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths.
That applied in Israels time. Today he will smite all Nations/rulers/people who do not accept and obey Jesus and ... trust in His ruler-ship not man's.

ALL Christ's commands and directives were away from violence and the 1st century believers knew it and even later ones did, but the weeds were filling the leadership positions and eventually a Nation was put ahead of Christ.


"But now inquiry is made about this point, whether a believer may turn himself unto military service, and
whether the military may be admitted unto the faith, even the rank and file, or each inferior grade, to
whom there is no necessity for taking part in sacrifices or capital punishments. There is no
agreement between the divine and the human sacrament, the standard of Christ and the standard of the devil,
the camp of light and the camp of darkness. One soul cannot be due to two masters-God and Caesar. And yet
Moses carried a rod, and Aaron wore a buckle, and John (Baptist) is girt with leather and Joshua the son of
Nun leads a line of march; and the People warred: if it pleases you to sport with the subject. But how will
a Christian man war, nay, how will he serve even in peace, without a sword, which the Lord has taken away?
For albeit soldiers had come unto John, and had received the formula of their rule; albeit, likewise,
a centurion had believed; still the Lord afterward, in disarming Peter, unbed every soldier. No dress is
lawful among us, if assigned to any unlawful action" (Tertullian, De Idolatria XIX).


Justin Martyr writes:

"And when the Spirit of prophecy speaks as predicting things that are to come to pass, He speaks in this
way: 'For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And He shall judge
among the nations, and shall rebuke many people; and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and
their spears into pruning-hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war
any more.' And that it did so come to pass, we can convince you. For from Jerusalem there went out into
the world, men, twelve in number, and these illiterate, of no ability in speaking: but by the
power of God they proclaimed to every race of men that they were sent by Christ to teach to all the word of
God; and we who formerly used to murder one another do not only now refrain from making war upon our enemies
, but also, that we may not lie nor deceive our examiners, willingly die confessing Christ" (1
Apologia XXXIX).


"If an applicant or believer seeks to become a soldier, he must be rejected, for he has despised God"
(Apostolic Tradition 16).


From World History, the Story of Man’s Achievements by Habberton, Roth and Spears, p.117: “Zealous Christians did not serve in the armed forces or accept political offices.”

The March of Civilization, Ancient and Medieval World by Jesse E. Wrench, Professor of History, University of Missouri, p.205: “The Christians refused to show their loyalty by burning incense to the emperor. Being men of peace, they would not serve in the Roman armies.”




m the Old World to the New by E.A. Golligan, Associate Superintendent of Schools, City of New York, and Maxwell F. Littwin, Principal of New York City Public Schools, pp. 88,89: “They preferred the Kingdom of God to any kingdom that they might serve on earth. …The early Christians were ready to die for their faith. …Since they believed in peace they would not serve in Rome’s imperial armies.”


Many over the centuries have bought into the lie and put love of Country ahead of love of brother and shared in the slaughter if fellow Christians and innocent men , women and children.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-03-2014, 04:17 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,932 posts, read 26,160,446 times
Reputation: 16087
Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA View Post
The OT was for ... Israel and war was used to form and to protect it. Uniquely if Israel went to war without God 's explicit blessing, it lost.
The laws of divine establishment - volition, marriage, family, and nationalism were ordained by God and apply throughout all dispensations.


Quote:
The just war doctrine came in long after Christians left paying attention to God's word. It was devised by man (Augustine) to allow war.

God disposes without His servants fighting. Daniel plainly shows that, as Babylon fell, releasing the Israelites, with only the efforts of pagan men.
A just war is from God.
1 Chronicles 5:22 For many fell slain, because the war was of God. And they settled in their place until the exile.
And God uses nations to punish other nations. God used the Israelites to dispossess the peoples of the land He was to give to the Israelites.

Quote:
The Nations/Rulership are destroyed at the beginning of that rule. "Nations" also refers to people, not just governments.

There will be individual Gentile nations during the Millennium which Jesus will rule over with a rod of iron. This is clear from a reading of Zechariah 14:16-19. And the nation of Egypt is specifically mentioned.

At the end of the Millennium Satan will be released to deceive the nations (Revelation 20:8).

And contrary to what you say below, all of Zechariah chapter 14 refers to the still future Millennial kingdom.

Quote:
Yes, but not those old kings nor the existing ones. Rather these:
The reference is to Psalm 72:11 - And let all kings bow down before Him, All nations serve him.

Here is what the Bible Knowledge Commentary says about Psalm 72.
Two psalms (72; 127) are attributed to ''Solomon.'' If Psalm 72 is his, it may describe his reign. Also it speaks of the millennial reign of the Messiah. The psalm describes the blessings that flow from the righteousness of God's theocratic ruler. The psalmist fully expected that the king would reign in righteousness and peace on behalf of the oppressed, and that his dominion would extend over many kings, from sea to sea. The psalmist prayed for the blessing of peace and prosperity, basing his appeal on the fact that the king is a savior of the oppressed and is therefore worthy of honor, power, and dominion.
[The Bible Knowledge Commentary, Old Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty. p. 846]
There will still be earthly kings or rulers during the Millennium, but they will be in subjection to Jesus. Psalm 2 warns these kings to show discernment, and to worship the LORD with reverence, that they may not perish.


Quote:
Quote:
That applied in Israels time. Today he will smite all Nations/rulers/people who do not accept and obey Jesus and ... trust in His ruler-ship not man's.

ALL Christ's commands and directives were away from violence and the 1st century believers knew it and even later ones did, but the weeds were filling the leadership positions and eventually a Nation was put ahead of Christ.


"But now inquiry is made about this point, whether a believer may turn himself unto military service, and
whether the military may be admitted unto the faith, even the rank and file, or each inferior grade, to
whom there is no necessity for taking part in sacrifices or capital punishments. There is no
agreement between the divine and the human sacrament, the standard of Christ and the standard of the devil,
the camp of light and the camp of darkness. One soul cannot be due to two masters-God and Caesar. And yet
Moses carried a rod, and Aaron wore a buckle, and John (Baptist) is girt with leather and Joshua the son of
Nun leads a line of march; and the People warred: if it pleases you to sport with the subject. But how will
a Christian man war, nay, how will he serve even in peace, without a sword, which the Lord has taken away?
For albeit soldiers had come unto John, and had received the formula of their rule; albeit, likewise,
a centurion had believed; still the Lord afterward, in disarming Peter, unbed every soldier. No dress is
lawful among us, if assigned to any unlawful action" (Tertullian, De Idolatria XIX).


Justin Martyr writes:

"And when the Spirit of prophecy speaks as predicting things that are to come to pass, He speaks in this
way: 'For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And He shall judge
among the nations, and shall rebuke many people; and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and
their spears into pruning-hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war
any more.' And that it did so come to pass, we can convince you. For from Jerusalem there went out into
the world, men, twelve in number, and these illiterate, of no ability in speaking: but by the
power of God they proclaimed to every race of men that they were sent by Christ to teach to all the word of
God; and we who formerly used to murder one another do not only now refrain from making war upon our enemies
, but also, that we may not lie nor deceive our examiners, willingly die confessing Christ" (1
Apologia XXXIX).


"If an applicant or believer seeks to become a soldier, he must be rejected, for he has despised God"
(Apostolic Tradition 16).


From World History, the Story of Man’s Achievements by Habberton, Roth and Spears, p.117: “Zealous Christians did not serve in the armed forces or accept political offices.”

The March of Civilization, Ancient and Medieval World by Jesse E. Wrench, Professor of History, University of Missouri, p.205: “The Christians refused to show their loyalty by burning incense to the emperor. Being men of peace, they would not serve in the Roman armies.”



m the Old World to the New by E.A. Golligan, Associate Superintendent of Schools, City of New York, and Maxwell F. Littwin, Principal of New York City Public Schools, pp. 88,89: “They preferred the Kingdom of God to any kingdom that they might serve on earth. …The early Christians were ready to die for their faith. …Since they believed in peace they would not serve in Rome’s imperial armies.”


Many over the centuries have bought into the lie and put love of Country ahead of love of brother and shared in the slaughter if fellow Christians and innocent men , women and children.
Zechariah 14:18-19 is prophetic and refers to the Millennium which is still future. A simple reading of the chapter shows that.

However, whether there will be nations during the Millennium is not the topic of the thread. So if you disagree, then disagree.

But Christians serving their Country is not automatically being in opposition to God.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-03-2014, 05:15 PM
 
18,172 posts, read 16,267,885 times
Reputation: 9325
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post

But Christians serving their Country is not automatically being in opposition to God.
Their Country is God's Kingdom and we can have only ONE ruler/master, Jesus.

The Nations of earth today are ruled by Satan. God has allowed and even directed the establishment of some, but he lets Satan rule them. He will destroy all such and their armies, so it would be a bad idea to encourage, let alone join, and nations military.

You ignored what the 1st Christians knew and did. Later generations followed Augustine's "Just War" theology and ... killed millions of their brothers and ... still do. I don't think there is any good explanation that can be given to God for .... killing His son again and again.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-03-2014, 05:56 PM
 
2,770 posts, read 2,587,231 times
Reputation: 3048
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You are ignoring the things I pointed out to you that the Bible says about the subject.
After Christ accomplished what He did, the world entered into a new dispensation. Are we to slaughter goats, because people did it in the OT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I've a better idea. You answer this question. If the only way you could stop someone from murdering your wife was to kill him, would you kill him, or would you let him murder her?
You really can't draw a contrast between, training for months on end and then flying thousands and thousands of miles away to drop bombs on people you don't even know, and protecting your family in your own home?

You place way to much faith in the American government, to think that they have Christs will, at the forefront of their agenda.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-03-2014, 06:00 PM
 
2,770 posts, read 2,587,231 times
Reputation: 3048
Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA View Post
The OT was for ... Israel and war was used to form and to protect it. Uniquely if Israel went to war without God 's explicit blessing, it lost.


The just war doctrine came in long after Christians left paying attention to God's word. It was devised by man (Augustine) to allow war.

God disposes without His servants fighting. Daniel plainly shows that, as Babylon fell, releasing the Israelites, with only the efforts of pagan men.


The Nations/Rulership are destroyed at the beginning of that rule. "Nations" also refers to people, not just governments.
[b]

Yes, but not those old kings nor the existing ones. Rather these:

ASV Revelation 5:10 and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth.

The nations are these people:

KJV Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

1484 ethnos {eth'-nos}
Meaning: 1) a multitude (whether of men or of beasts) associated or living together 1a) a company, troop, swarm 2) a multitude of individuals of the same nature or genus 2a) the human race 3) a race, nation, people group 4) in the OT, foreign nations not worshipping the true God, pagans, Gentiles 5) Paul uses the term for Gentile Christians

Note Paul uses it of gentile Christians not nations/rulers as none existed then that were even close to being Christian Nations.

What is your ethnicity? That is what is meant.


[b]
That applied in Israels time. Today he will smite all Nations/rulers/people who do not accept and obey Jesus and ... trust in His ruler-ship not man's.

ALL Christ's commands and directives were away from violence and the 1st century believers knew it and even later ones did, but the weeds were filling the leadership positions and eventually a Nation was put ahead of Christ.


"But now inquiry is made about this point, whether a believer may turn himself unto military service, and
whether the military may be admitted unto the faith, even the rank and file, or each inferior grade, to
whom there is no necessity for taking part in sacrifices or capital punishments. There is no
agreement between the divine and the human sacrament, the standard of Christ and the standard of the devil,
the camp of light and the camp of darkness. One soul cannot be due to two masters-God and Caesar. And yet
Moses carried a rod, and Aaron wore a buckle, and John (Baptist) is girt with leather and Joshua the son of
Nun leads a line of march; and the People warred: if it pleases you to sport with the subject. But how will
a Christian man war, nay, how will he serve even in peace, without a sword, which the Lord has taken away?
For albeit soldiers had come unto John, and had received the formula of their rule; albeit, likewise,
a centurion had believed; still the Lord afterward, in disarming Peter, unbed every soldier. No dress is
lawful among us, if assigned to any unlawful action" (Tertullian, De Idolatria XIX).


Justin Martyr writes:

"And when the Spirit of prophecy speaks as predicting things that are to come to pass, He speaks in this
way: 'For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And He shall judge
among the nations, and shall rebuke many people; and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and
their spears into pruning-hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war
any more.' And that it did so come to pass, we can convince you. For from Jerusalem there went out into
the world, men, twelve in number, and these illiterate, of no ability in speaking: but by the
power of God they proclaimed to every race of men that they were sent by Christ to teach to all the word of
God; and we who formerly used to murder one another do not only now refrain from making war upon our enemies
, but also, that we may not lie nor deceive our examiners, willingly die confessing Christ" (1
Apologia XXXIX).


"If an applicant or believer seeks to become a soldier, he must be rejected, for he has despised God"
(Apostolic Tradition 16).


From World History, the Story of Man’s Achievements by Habberton, Roth and Spears, p.117: “Zealous Christians did not serve in the armed forces or accept political offices.â€

The March of Civilization, Ancient and Medieval World by Jesse E. Wrench, Professor of History, University of Missouri, p.205: “The Christians refused to show their loyalty by burning incense to the emperor. Being men of peace, they would not serve in the Roman armies.â€




m the Old World to the New by E.A. Golligan, Associate Superintendent of Schools, City of New York, and Maxwell F. Littwin, Principal of New York City Public Schools, pp. 88,89: “They preferred the Kingdom of God to any kingdom that they might serve on earth. …The early Christians were ready to die for their faith. …Since they believed in peace they would not serve in Rome’s imperial armies.â€


Many over the centuries have bought into the lie and put love of Country ahead of love of brother and shared in the slaughter if fellow Christians and innocent men , women and children.
Excellent post
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-03-2014, 06:08 PM
 
2,770 posts, read 2,587,231 times
Reputation: 3048
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bideshi View Post
Read Luke 22:36 and tell me why our Lord Jesus Christ said that. You do know that the disciples were armed don't you? Peter cut a man's ear off.
And what did Christ say to Peter, when he did that?

Here's a good explanation of the verse you speak of. A Brief Explanation of the Sword in Luke 22:36
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-03-2014, 07:00 PM
 
Location: Arizona
28,956 posts, read 16,192,722 times
Reputation: 2295
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No, Christians do not have only one Country. Believers have a dual citizenship. While Phil:3:7 says that the believer's citizenship is in heaven, the believer is also a citizen of whatever nation he lives in and he has a duty to that country. As Paul said in Romans 13, the believer is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. Now if the law of man conflicts with the law of God then the believer must obey God rather than man, but serving in the military does not conflict with God's will. A study of the Old Testament makes that clear.
In other words, you have Christians in one country, fighting and killing Christians in another country.
Just a thought, but would you not call that "murdering" your brother?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-03-2014, 08:47 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,932 posts, read 26,160,446 times
Reputation: 16087
Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA View Post
Their Country is God's Kingdom and we can have only ONE ruler/master, Jesus.

The Nations of earth today are ruled by Satan. God has allowed and even directed the establishment of some, but he lets Satan rule them. He will destroy all such and their armies, so it would be a bad idea to encourage, let alone join, and nations military.

You ignored what the 1st Christians knew and did. Later generations followed Augustine's "Just War" theology and ... killed millions of their brothers and ... still do. I don't think there is any good explanation that can be given to God for .... killing His son again and again.
It is because Satan is the ruler of this world for the present that God has set up principles of divine establishment and the divine institutions which includes nationalism, to protect and perpetuate the human race in the devil's world.

The doctrine of the divine institutions and the laws of divine establishment are covered below.

Divine Institutions and Establishment

Doctrine of Divine Institutions: http://gracebiblechurchwichita.org/?page_id=1521

Doctrine of the Client Nation to God: http://gracebiblechurchwichita.org/?page_id=1097

Expat, I don't need to, and I don't intend to keep going over this with you. I stand by what I have already said to you in posts #37, 41, 43, and here. If, and you do, disagree, then you disagree. You have the right to believe whatever you want.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-04-2014, 08:07 AM
 
13,460 posts, read 4,792,989 times
Reputation: 9452
Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA View Post
There is a vast difference between self defense and National military activities.

Everyone tries to use personal self defense to justify military action and the two are vastly different. After all, did Christians fight against Rome when it invaded Judea or did they ........... flee the Country as Jesus directed. Christian killing Christian in war dishonors God and His Son.

Just look back to the US civil war. Christians from the same Church killed each other. Christians from Maine went South to Kill. Maine was never threatened at all, so no personal self defense was involved.

I suspect God is powerful enough to see His will regarding the Nations done without His people dishonoring Him.
First off, you sort of missed my point - killing in PERSONAL self-defense is not justified. Don't want to get side-tracked into a discussion of the causes of the Civil War, but killing to free an entire race from slavery MAY be justified.

Just because its justified, doesn't mean its not a sin. Killing is still a sin, but allowing slavery may be a greater sin. My other point is that these are not easy decisions.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top