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Only an atheist or a universalists would claim Christians see God that way. I have personally never heard a Christian describe God that way, so it is fairly dishonest to put those words in other peoples mouth.
So dashing the heads of babies against rocks and stoning the guy to death who picks up a few sticks on Friday instead Saturday to keep his family warm, is a God who commanded such things you would follow?.Pastor??Vizio who i believe when i respond to him is like responding to you, would definetly believe anyone who did such things should be in a jail and not be forgiven
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
The problem is not my opinion. Our jail system is full of prisoners that have forgiven themselves--or even bettter....think they didn't do anything wrong. We don't need to forgive ourselves. We need God to forgive us.
What does that verse have to do with the price of tea in China? You were talking about self-forgiveness...not others.
The issue in eternal salvation, the ONLY issue, is whether a person receives Christ as Savior. Because of the work of Jesus Christ on the cross in paying the penalty for our sins, anyone who simply believes that Jesus died for our sins and rose again and therefore trusts in Jesus Christ for eternal life, receives eternal life.
We were NEVER condemned because of our own personal sins. Rather, we were all condemned because of Adam's original sin.
Our sins are simply not the issue with regard to eternal life since Jesus died for every sin all of us will ever commit whether you believe in Him or not. The issue is whether or not you place your faith in Christ Jesus, and as a result are credited with Jesus' perfect righteousness, and receive the imputation of eternal life.
First of all, let's get real here.
There was no Adam.. there was no Eve, No garden of Eden, No Flood, Nada. I mean if there was, please explain in Genesis which version of creation I should view as correct as I get confused easily between the differences in the two different versions. They have completely different orders. They don't adhere to the laws of physics. Maybe my PhD is worthless here.
Genesis 1:1-1:27: Day 1: Heaven, Earth, darkness across deep, Spirit over the water,Light, Day, Darkness, night. Day 2: Vault separate sky from water. Day 3: Dry Ground, Vegetation, seed-bearing plants, trees. Day 4: Lights separating day from night, Sun, Moon, Stars, set them in sky vault. Day 5: water creatures, birds, . Day 6: livestock,land animals, mankind in our imange, Male and Female, Man can eat from every Seed bearing plant, Every Green Plant for food. Day 7: Watch Football
Genesis 2:4 - Genesis 3:21 Now, this part isn't broken down into days, but pay attention to the order which is completely different from the first account
1. Made heavens and earth, No shrubs because no rain but fortunately streams came up from the earth and watered the whole thing.2. Made man out of dust, breathed life into him, Planted a garden in the East Made trees. Middle of garden made tree of Knowledge.3. Put man in garden of Eden to work it .... work it... Can eat from any tree except tree of knowledge... cause if you do your gonna die.4. Decided to make a helper. Made the anials, bird; let Adam name them, Adam sexually frustrated with animals.5. Gave Adam Ambien, while asleep stole rib much like internet hoax kidney theft. Made Eve out of rib. Both naked but no shame. Adam - Big scar on one side from missing rib.6. Talking Serpent convinces Eve to eat fruit from tree of knowledge, Finds out she's naked and going to die... so... why not give some to Adam. Both hide because of being naked and big scar.7. God throws temper tantrum. Curses humanity. Oh the Humanity.
I mean we are on page 4 of the bible and already it is contradicting itself. Yet Christians hold on to this fairy tale because (1) If there was no Adam and Eve then (2) There is no original sin and (3) Then no need for Jesus for all those saying our sins don't matter, it's original sin we need saving from. Hmmmmm
There are so many different ways to accurately pinpoint the age of the earth, roughly 4.5 billion years ago. The first organic fossils we see are approximately 3.5 billion years ago. Now we see the development of single cell organisms to multi-cell all the way up to dinosaurs ruling the earth... all with different dates, Then we see a big fall off, and Ice age, (which we can confirm with Ice samples) and then a big resurgence of life with the frst primates appearing around 65 million years ago and
We see the first fossils of our immediate ancestors Homo gautengensis,Homo habilis,Homo erectus,Homo ancestor,Homo ergaster,Homo rhodesiensis,Homo heidelbergensis, Homo neanderthalensis,Homo floresiensis to name a few. We can now confirm via DNA testing that they interbred, and that we are somewhat of a mix of them with Homosapiens being the end result.
No 7 days... No Adam and Eve. Therefore no original Sin. No need for a resurrecting Kyptonian zombie flying off to meet dad in heaven.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovesMountains
God is indeed "just", and we have no right to judge God - we are merely the created, He is the creator.
As our creator He will judge us.
And no man can say with 100% confidence they know the whole mind of God and what he will do in his final judgement.
So god is just. If God is just, why don't we emulate him more. Why don't we allow everyone to run around doing whatever they want as long as they go before the judge and say "Sorry bout that". If your answer is the 10 commandments... lets look at them... I mean
1. No other Gods
2. No images of gods or likenesses of them on land or in the water because god is jealous (Kind of got that in the first commandment). Oh yea... if you do this I'm going to beat up your kids, your grandkids, greatgrandkids and greatgreatgrandkids... We often leave this part out because it doesn't sound very just.
3. No taking Name of lord in vain.
4. Remember the sabbith.
5. Honor parents
6. No killing
7. No adultry
8. No stealing
9. No bearing false witness
10. No coveting neighbors stuff. (People around the corner is o.k.)
So can we do anyting but this, like have slaves (yup) sex slaves (yup) commit genocide killing everyone except good lookin virgins of childbearing age (yup... but only when I tell you). Force the virgins to marry our ugly guys with lots of back hair (yup).
I know maybe god was running out of room on the tablets and maybe Moses had bad eyesight so god couldn't use a smaller font... but come on, 4 commandments just about himself. Couldn't he have compressed them leaving a little room... I mean couldn't we have had an 11th saying you can't own someone or a 12th saying you can't force a woman into bondage, or maybe just one saying I'm God, worship me, treat others as you would like to be treated. (Wait.. I just translated that to Hebrew... and it is much longer than the 10 Commandments... my bad)
But again there are 2 different sets of commandments. I mean, granted they were only written in stone, so I could see how they could be in error. I would imagine that would make them pretty easy to get right. The differences are subtle but again demonstrate something. The two versions are in : Exodus (20:2-17) and Deuteronomy( 5:6-21).
You can look and see the different wording, (again stone tablet... maybe a bit got flipped in their early computers), but there are two completely different reasons for the Sabbath. Exodus is because of the six days of creation, Deuteronomy is because we were slaves in Egypt and god got us out.
Now clearly they both can't be right. I mean these were stone tablets written by god and the bible is god's word...Hmmm....
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicagoMeO
its not totalitarian if you put it in a different perspective. Since God is so much more knowledgeable, powerful, (but loving) than us, and sees things from a whole different perspective than us, then we people judging God is kinda like a little spider trying to judge a human being. the spider just doesn't have the capacity to be able to do so. we'd laugh if we could hear a little spider talk about how he sees us.
its also the same reason putting it in perspective of humans, its like me trying to dictate what the King of England ought to do and thats just a human being. For God, magnify that rule a million times and you might get a different idea about that.
1. If you love someone, you don't light them on fire and keep it lit for eternity. I mean, just lighting them on fire is pretty bad. Maybe love doesn't translate well from Hebrew to Greek to English.
2. Just because someone or something is more powerful, doesn't mean the less powerful can't recognize what is just and unjust. If we go into a Meerkat colony, they would recognize me torturing one, or stealing one of them or killing half their colony. You could tell if the King of England was running a slavery ring and that it was bad. Even insects know when we hurt them and can identify humnas and learn to stay away in experimental settings. Saying that he is just is a copout.
The bottom line is that: 1. The bible is not true. It is inconsistant as demonstrated in the order of creation and the reasons for the 10 commandmnts (I could go on and on, the flood, prophacies, etc). If it is the inherent word of god than it can't be this messed up. If it is just translation and mistakes over time, then we can not trust any part to be true as it could have been written incorrectly. I mean, even stuff written down in STONE TABLETS is different.
2. There was no Adam and Eve, therefore no original sin. Therefore no need for Jesus. No need for salvation.
3. Do you really think it is more morally just for someone to go through life raping children, killing people, soaking babies with gasoline and shooting them with a flare gun, and to simply say they are sorry and accept Jesus on their death bed than a good Atheist who serves others who hate him, gives of himself to everyone and obeys the golden rule, but finds it impossible to believe in God, only because all the physical evidence in the universe says otherwise and the intelligence he was given overrides a self contradicting immoral fairy tale written thousands of years ago.
3. If we believe that god is moral, we should emulate him. Like having slaves. It was only through the compassion and secular reasoning that determined that everyone should equal... Nor shoud we hold future generations accountable for the actions of the father.
I can't believe this is even a discussion. And we wonder why the U.S. is falling behind all other developed countries. It's not because we took god out of the classroom, that's for sure.
I'll have to take your word for it since you know how atheists think.
Yes, I got to argue/discuss issues with many of them on a Christian website where atheists presented their points of view. Not all of them believe the same.. and i have heard statements like you have made from them.
Dont try to discount me as you dont know me in real life.
Only an atheist or a universalists would claim Christians see God that way. I have personally never heard a Christian describe God that way, so it is fairly dishonest to put those words in other peoples mouth.
Doubters come in all kinds of people with all kinds of religious labels, even those that think they know everything, but really they are mistaken. Even the Pharasees in Jesus day thought they were so smart and religious, but Jesus pointed out to them they knew nothing He valued. A few of them came out like Nicodemus though. and Apostle Paul really.
Atheists can be very smart, very loving, very logical however, they totally miss THE most important thing in the world - Jesus Christ will save them from the wrath of God.
Interesting, a person with the word "atheist" in his name wrote a response a few posts above. He proves my point. Very smart & intelligent, yet he cannot believe the things of God are true not even what is written in Genesis much less the saving power of Jesus Christ. We were all in darkness before God took us and showed us the truth, and even moreso - the saving power of Jesus which the atheist CANNOT understand and oftentimes HATES God,, (per the book of Romans). we would hate God if it weren't for the Holy Spirit opening up our eyes (spiritually).. anyone who knows God and loves God are blessed because we have been mercifully given the grace to see and believe. i say that with humble gratitude, not pride.
Doubters come in all kinds of people with all kinds of religious labels, even those that think they know everything, but really they are mistaken. Even the Pharasees in Jesus day thought they were so smart and religious, but Jesus pointed out to them they knew nothing He valued. A few of them came out like Nicodemus though. and Apostle Paul really.
Atheists can be very smart, very loving, very logical however, they totally miss THE most important thing in the world - Jesus Christ will save them from the wrath of God.
Interesting, a person with the word "atheist" in his name wrote a response a few posts above. He proves my point. Very smart & intelligent, yet he cannot believe the things of God are true not even what is written in Genesis much less the saving power of Jesus Christ. We were all in darkness before God took us and showed us the truth, and even moreso - the saving power of Jesus which the atheist CANNOT understand and oftentimes HATES God,, (per the book of Romans). we would hate God if it weren't for the Holy Spirit opening up our eyes (spiritually).. anyone who knows God and loves God are blessed because we have been mercifully given the grace to see and believe. i say that with humble gratitude, not pride.
There is a difference between being smart and being wise according to God. A person can have all the initials behind their name but that doesn't mean they are wise.
Secularism \ Humanism \ Atheism \ Universalism is worldly wisdom ... and we know what God says about what he will do when people harden themselves with such wisdom, eventually he will do this:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”1 Corinthians 1:19, Isaiah 29:14
It does happen when the hard heartened goes from themself doing the hardening to God doing the hardening making it impossible to understand. However, we do not know when that line is crossed so we must continue to present the truth.
First of all, let's get real here.
There was no Adam.. there was no Eve, No garden of Eden, No Flood, Nada. I mean if there was, please explain in Genesis which version of creation I should view as correct as I get confused easily between the differences in the two different versions. They have completely different orders. They don't adhere to the laws of physics. Maybe my PhD is worthless here.
Genesis 1:1-1:27: Day 1: Heaven, Earth, darkness across deep, Spirit over the water,Light, Day, Darkness, night. Day 2: Vault separate sky from water. Day 3: Dry Ground, Vegetation, seed-bearing plants, trees. Day 4: Lights separating day from night, Sun, Moon, Stars, set them in sky vault. Day 5: water creatures, birds, . Day 6: livestock,land animals, mankind in our imange, Male and Female, Man can eat from every Seed bearing plant, Every Green Plant for food. Day 7: Watch Football
Genesis 2:4 - Genesis 3:21 Now, this part isn't broken down into days, but pay attention to the order which is completely different from the first account
1. Made heavens and earth, No shrubs because no rain but fortunately streams came up from the earth and watered the whole thing.2. Made man out of dust, breathed life into him, Planted a garden in the East Made trees. Middle of garden made tree of Knowledge.3. Put man in garden of Eden to work it .... work it... Can eat from any tree except tree of knowledge... cause if you do your gonna die.4. Decided to make a helper. Made the anials, bird; let Adam name them, Adam sexually frustrated with animals.5. Gave Adam Ambien, while asleep stole rib much like internet hoax kidney theft. Made Eve out of rib. Both naked but no shame. Adam - Big scar on one side from missing rib.6. Talking Serpent convinces Eve to eat fruit from tree of knowledge, Finds out she's naked and going to die... so... why not give some to Adam. Both hide because of being naked and big scar.7. God throws temper tantrum. Curses humanity. Oh the Humanity.
I mean we are on page 4 of the bible and already it is contradicting itself. Yet Christians hold on to this fairy tale because (1) If there was no Adam and Eve then (2) There is no original sin and (3) Then no need for Jesus for all those saying our sins don't matter, it's original sin we need saving from. Hmmmmm
There are so many different ways to accurately pinpoint the age of the earth, roughly 4.5 billion years ago. The first organic fossils we see are approximately 3.5 billion years ago. Now we see the development of single cell organisms to multi-cell all the way up to dinosaurs ruling the earth... all with different dates, Then we see a big fall off, and Ice age, (which we can confirm with Ice samples) and then a big resurgence of life with the frst primates appearing around 65 million years ago and
We see the first fossils of our immediate ancestors Homo gautengensis,Homo habilis,Homo erectus,Homo ancestor,Homo ergaster,Homo rhodesiensis,Homo heidelbergensis, Homo neanderthalensis,Homo floresiensis to name a few. We can now confirm via DNA testing that they interbred, and that we are somewhat of a mix of them with Homosapiens being the end result.
No 7 days... No Adam and Eve. Therefore no original Sin. No need for a resurrecting Kyptonian zombie flying off to meet dad in heaven.
So god is just. If God is just, why don't we emulate him more. Why don't we allow everyone to run around doing whatever they want as long as they go before the judge and say "Sorry bout that". If your answer is the 10 commandments... lets look at them... I mean
1. No other Gods
2. No images of gods or likenesses of them on land or in the water because god is jealous (Kind of got that in the first commandment). Oh yea... if you do this I'm going to beat up your kids, your grandkids, greatgrandkids and greatgreatgrandkids... We often leave this part out because it doesn't sound very just.
3. No taking Name of lord in vain.
4. Remember the sabbith.
5. Honor parents
6. No killing
7. No adultry
8. No stealing
9. No bearing false witness
10. No coveting neighbors stuff. (People around the corner is o.k.)
So can we do anyting but this, like have slaves (yup) sex slaves (yup) commit genocide killing everyone except good lookin virgins of childbearing age (yup... but only when I tell you). Force the virgins to marry our ugly guys with lots of back hair (yup).
I know maybe god was running out of room on the tablets and maybe Moses had bad eyesight so god couldn't use a smaller font... but come on, 4 commandments just about himself. Couldn't he have compressed them leaving a little room... I mean couldn't we have had an 11th saying you can't own someone or a 12th saying you can't force a woman into bondage, or maybe just one saying I'm God, worship me, treat others as you would like to be treated. (Wait.. I just translated that to Hebrew... and it is much longer than the 10 Commandments... my bad)
But again there are 2 different sets of commandments. I mean, granted they were only written in stone, so I could see how they could be in error. I would imagine that would make them pretty easy to get right. The differences are subtle but again demonstrate something. The two versions are in : Exodus (20:2-17) and Deuteronomy( 5:6-21).
You can look and see the different wording, (again stone tablet... maybe a bit got flipped in their early computers), but there are two completely different reasons for the Sabbath. Exodus is because of the six days of creation, Deuteronomy is because we were slaves in Egypt and god got us out.
Now clearly they both can't be right. I mean these were stone tablets written by god and the bible is god's word...Hmmm....
1. If you love someone, you don't light them on fire and keep it lit for eternity. I mean, just lighting them on fire is pretty bad. Maybe love doesn't translate well from Hebrew to Greek to English.
2. Just because someone or something is more powerful, doesn't mean the less powerful can't recognize what is just and unjust. If we go into a Meerkat colony, they would recognize me torturing one, or stealing one of them or killing half their colony. You could tell if the King of England was running a slavery ring and that it was bad. Even insects know when we hurt them and can identify humnas and learn to stay away in experimental settings. Saying that he is just is a copout.
The bottom line is that: 1. The bible is not true. It is inconsistant as demonstrated in the order of creation and the reasons for the 10 commandmnts (I could go on and on, the flood, prophacies, etc). If it is the inherent word of god than it can't be this messed up. If it is just translation and mistakes over time, then we can not trust any part to be true as it could have been written incorrectly. I mean, even stuff written down in STONE TABLETS is different. 2. There was no Adam and Eve, therefore no original sin. Therefore no need for Jesus. No need for salvation. 3. Do you really think it is more morally just for someone to go through life raping children, killing people, soaking babies with gasoline and shooting them with a flare gun, and to simply say they are sorry and accept Jesus on their death bed than a good Atheist who serves others who hate him, gives of himself to everyone and obeys the golden rule, but finds it impossible to believe in God, only because all the physical evidence in the universe says otherwise and the intelligence he was given overrides a self contradicting immoral fairy tale written thousands of years ago. 3. If we believe that god is moral, we should emulate him. Like having slaves. It was only through the compassion and secular reasoning that determined that everyone should equal... Nor shoud we hold future generations accountable for the actions of the father.
I can't believe this is even a discussion. And we wonder why the U.S. is falling behind all other developed countries. It's not because we took god out of the classroom, that's for sure.
I agree and one more thing. When people hear voices, they are called delusional, but all they have to say is that it was this all powerful invisible being that talks to them and it's OK?
Only an atheist or a universalists would claim Christians see God that way. I have personally never heard a Christian describe God that way, so it is fairly dishonest to put those words in other peoples mouth.
Wrong. We say nothing about how you see God because you are blinded by dogma. We simply point out that God is described like that in the OT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps
So dashing the heads of babies against rocks and stoning the guy to death who picks up a few sticks on Friday instead Saturday to keep his family warm, is a God who commanded such things you would follow?.Pastor??Vizio who i believe when i respond to him is like responding to you, would definetly believe anyone who did such things should be in a jail and not be forgiven
People only SEE what they want to see. pcamps. Far too many refuse to see the savagery and barbarity attributed to God in the Bible to protect themselves from having to explain it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
There is a difference between being smart and being wise according to God. A person can have all the initials behind their name but that doesn't mean they are wise.
Secularism \ Humanism \ Atheism \ Universalism is worldly wisdom ... and we know what God says about what he will do when people harden themselves with such wisdom, eventually he will do this:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”1 Corinthians 1:19, Isaiah 29:14
It does happen when the hard heartened goes from themself doing the hardening to God doing the hardening making it impossible to understand. However, we do not know when that line is crossed so we must continue to present the truth.
This is the asinine and all too convenient excuse used by the ignorant and uneducated to pretend that God is on their side and wants them to remain ignorant and uneducated as a sign of their faith in God. There is no more effective method of keeping people ignorant, uneducated and enslaved to dogma and doctrine. The only truth being talked about is the truth that God exists and not all the wise dispute that. You do a disservice to yourself and God by dismissing the wise who believe in God.
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