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Pneuma, it's obvious that you and I see things differently on this front. The thing is, I don't see the difference as a big deal. Do you? In other words, there are some beliefs that it doesn't really impact how we live our lives, so it's more just a "point of interest". Sort of the same way I see the difference between believing in "soul sleep" or not as being unimportant to our lives in the here and now. So, is this belief one of those things? Or do you think that believing as you do has transformed you in some way that is vital to your walk, or is in some other way important?
I don't think I can really answer that sis, if it was something I seen 10 or 20 years ago I might have some referance to see how it inpacked my life, but as I have always believed it.
Would it inpact other life? I don't know, it a faith thing and if people can believe they can enter into the promise land now and if they don't believe it then how can one enter that does not believe?
Could it be that because death is all around us the people have come to except it as a normal part of life? That the way it seems to me what people have done. Even some of the responses here seem to indicate that because death is all around it must be the norm.
I know you, mystic, Jer, camps and a few others are in agreement with me that God is a good God and only a good God. And we have all spent years on this board defending God as love and good.
However imo the belief that our physical body must die (ordained by God that way to set our spirit free) is not compatable with a loving good God. For then any type of death, stoning, shooting, knifing, torture can be said to be of God design for the setting free of our spirit. And this is an area that we have all fought against over the years here on this board. As our opponents have always maintianed that murders like the ones the shoot up school kids is by God design for some greater purpose.
Anyway sis that just the way I see things, if others do not, they do not, I can only give an answer for myself and why I beleive the way I do.
"died with Christ, [are you alive or dead?] raised with Him, [are you actually on the earth or in heaven right now?] seated with Him," all Hyperbole not actual events. "Events" that foreshadow what will actually happen at Christ's return.
ETA: we will be seated with Him on the earth which will be 'heaven on earth' since God will be here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate
I wanted to add this...
"If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied" (I Corinthians 15:19 NASV)
I'm not diminishing Christ promises to those who are obedient. I'm just saying while we do have 'life' now, etc etc, however, it's not until Christ who is LIFE returns that this true zoe life will extend to our actual body.
Or in other words His followers are to live by Christ's Eternal Life now, to be raised/resurrected by it in the future.
This would be a good scripture for you to study mship, speacially the word quicken.
Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
I don't think I can really answer that sis, if it was something I seen 10 or 20 years ago I might have some referance to see how it inpacked my life, but as I have always believed it.
Would it inpact other life? I don't know, it a faith thing and if people can believe they can enter into the promise land now and if they don't believe it then how can one enter that does not believe?
Could it be that because death is all around us the people have come to except it as a normal part of life? That the way it seems to me what people have done. Even some of the responses here seem to indicate that because death is all around it must be the norm.
I know you, mystic, Jer, camps and a few others are in agreement with me that God is a good God and only a good God. And we have all spent years on this board defending God as love and good.
However imo the belief that our physical body must die (ordained by God that way to set our spirit free) is not compatable with a loving good God. For then any type of death, stoning, shooting, knifing, torture can be said to be of God design for the setting free of our spirit. And this is an area that we have all fought against over the years here on this board. As our opponents have always maintianed that murders like the ones the shoot up school kids is by God design for some greater purpose.
Anyway sis that just the way I see things, if others do not, they do not, I can only give an answer for myself and why I beleive the way I do.
Not to be nitpicky, but the bolded portion does not follow, pneuma. You are talking about 2 very different things. That death of the physical body is a part of the natural order of things doesn't change the fact that murder is wrong. It doesn't change evil into good. Our physical bodies are a necessary part of our experience, and no person has the right to shorten that experience.
Are you aging at all, Pneuma? Can you stop it? Or reverse it? Do you succumb to any illnesses? If you can't control any of these processes, death is still operating in you. I don't really feel any older in my thoughts, though I feel I have gained wisdom and maturity, than I did when I was 20 BUT I look in the mirror and see my face growing older, my hair turning gray, my skin is getting thinner, the lines around my eyes and mouth are deeper......I did not will this to happen. It just did. I get tired and I need rest more often if not longer periods of sleep. this didn't happen because I willed it to happen, I didn't even think about it at all, it just happened. If you can keep the signs of aging from encroaching and never feel tired or terribly hungry and never get a headache, or any sort of physical ailment......then I might believe that one can defeat physical death. It would be great to observe.
Not to be nitpicky, but the bolded portion does not follow, pneuma. You are talking about 2 very different things. That death of the physical body is a part of the natural order of things doesn't change the fact that murder is wrong. It doesn't change evil into good. Our physical bodies are a necessary part of our experience, and no person has the right to shorten that experience.
I understand that you that we would hold a slightly different view, but it all comes down to physical DEATH in order to free the spirit. If our physical body is just a place for our spirit to develope then would not the spirit of a child that died not developed very far? and if the physical body is needed to develope the spirit how can the childs spirit ever grow?
Are you aging at all, Pneuma? Can you stop it? Or reverse it? Do you succumb to any illnesses? If you can't control any of these processes, death is still operating in you. I don't really feel any older in my thoughts, though I feel I have gained wisdom and maturity, than I did when I was 20 BUT I look in the mirror and see my face growing older, my hair turning gray, my skin is getting thinner, the lines around my eyes and mouth are deeper......I did not will this to happen. It just did. I get tired and I need rest more often if not longer periods of sleep. this didn't happen because I willed it to happen, I didn't even think about it at all, it just happened. If you can keep the signs of aging from encroaching and never feel tired or terribly hungry and never get a headache, or any sort of physical ailment......then I might believe that one can defeat physical death. It would be great to observe.
What does anything I have said to do with my will sis? its a faith thing, I simply believe the spirit of Christ can quicken our mortal bodies. Now if you look up the word quicken you will see that it is the same word used when speaking of the dead being rasied, or ressurected. Thus we can have and we should have resurrected bodies. bodies that have no need to die because we are a part of the first resurrection. I believe we can enter into the promise land by faith NOW and do not have to wait for our physical death. Like Joshua and Caleb we are well able to go up and take the country by faith, enter into the promise, only our lack of unbelief will cause us to die short of the promise.
I understand that you that we would hold a slightly different view, but it all comes down to physical DEATH in order to free the spirit. If our physical body is just a place for our spirit to develope then would not the spirit of a child that died not developed very far? and if the physical body is needed to develope the spirit how can the childs spirit ever grow?
While I think those are excellent questions, I don't know the answers. But, do you not also believe that our spirits must mature? Do you believe that our time here on this earth is part of that? And if so, obviously not all people have an equal amount of time here to do so regardless of whether your view or mine (or neither) is true, so it seems there must be some further opportunity offered, whatever it is.
If you do not believe that our time here has to do with maturing, what purpose does this time on earth serve, in your understanding?
Quicken.......I simply don't see it happen till we experience death of THIS body. If you believe that in some way God can/will make your body immortal without you experiencing what everyone in the world has ever experienced.........go ahead.......I think whether or not my body is going to be buried or cremated for years, or whether I live till Jesus returns and won't experience "sleep" I will die and be resurrected in a different body.......I don't think anyone here is questioning that we will be quickened in a new body at some point after death, but most don't understand how it could happen without dying. Whether we get a completley 'new' coat or He does something to 'change' the existing one, is not my concern. But I think most people think you are saying that if you have faith, you can live for the next thousand years even if nothing changes in the world......the rest of the people, live, give birth, die and their children, live, die, and on and on.
So the situation here still relies on other beliefs........is there a time when Christ actually returns and sets up His kingdom here on earth with everyone seeing Him and the world will change.......or is it a spiritual kingdom where only the hearts of certain individuals change........or as some believe, do our spirits leave and move out of this world/dimension and continue to evolve in a new way? Are there people out there walking around who have lived for centuries, like Wolverine? lol Would you want to keep watching your loved ones die? Is this what you are saying? Or simply that if you are one of the lucky faithful ones to be living when Christ returns you won't close your eyes in death?
While I think those are excellent questions, I don't know the answers. But, do you not also believe that our spirits must mature? Do you believe that our time here on this earth is part of that? And if so, obviously not all people have an equal amount of time here to do so regardless of whether your view or mine (or neither) is true, so it seems there must be some further opportunity offered, whatever it is.
If you do not believe that our time here has to do with maturing, what purpose does this time on earth serve, in your understanding?
Yes
No, as our spirit matures through the Spirit of Christ abiding in us, not because it is encased in a mortal coil.
the mystery which was hiden from the begining of the world.
And to makeall men seewhat is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hidin God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be knownby the church the manifold wisdom of God,11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposedin Christ Jesus our Lord:
That is our purpose as I see it.
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