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Well, since you refuse to confirm God's own Words in Isaiah 44:24 I will still answer your question on Image. Image can be a likeness of another person. And I believe there are degrees of authority in the God Head, yet it still requires the three beings involoved to = ONE GOD. And because of this, I can answer with an affirmative yes to Isaiah 44:24. And because you believe what you believe, you cannot answer with an affirmative yes to Isaiah 44:24.
Campbell,
Jesus is the light of the world Jhn 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Was this the Isaiah 44:24 reference
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. Jesus is the light of the world
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I [am] the LORD that maketh all [things]; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
God forms us from the womb but he does not personally do this, he has set in motion all the laws that enable everything to procede how he has willed it to be.
Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Jhn 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Jhn 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Jhn 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Jhn 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Campbell, Jesus repeatedly says that he has been given everything that he has from God his Father - that means that before he was given life in himself he did not have it but his Father did His Father (God) preceded him.
Would you drop it already. ShannaBrown did answer the question you just won't accept the answer.
What difference does it make anyway. The Bible was written, translated and combined by man, not god. There are MANY places in the bible that if taken literally God seems to contradict himself.
If God was ALONE explain these passages.
Genisis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
Who was God talking to?
Genisis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:.............
Again who was god talking to?
Genisis 11:7 ..., let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
Yet again who was god talking to?
Obviously going by those passages God was not alone. He was talking to somebody. Was it Jesus, other Gods, himself?
The word GOD is used to describe statues in the bible.
Genisis 31:30 .............. yet wherefore hast thou stolen my gods?
These GODS were hid in a trunk. Are they also part of the GOD trinity? The use of the word GOD doesn't necessarily mean Almighty God.
Genisis 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Genisis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
God had sons? I wonder if one of them was named Jesus?
Gensisis 1:26 is God speaking with the other members of the God head. God is not a singular person. The God head is made up of three persons, yet all three=ONE GOD.
In the Book of John it states, that there are three that bare record in heaven, the Father, the Word,(Jesus) and the Holy Ghost, and these three are ONE.
And that is why it is important to understand that in Isaiah 44:24 when God said that He (ALONE) made all things and (BY HIMSELF), He was really talking about all the members of the God head. Yet if you believe that Jesus was a seperate God, you would not be able to confirm that verse with a (YES), because the New Testament tells us that Jesus Christ made all things. Shanna could not confirm that verse with a (YES) because it would not be supported by the doctrine she believes in. So rather than confirm what God states so clearly in the Scripture, she refuses to confirm that the verse is true. She will say she believes it, but then will tell you that the reality is that even though she believes that Jesus was a seperate God, He really was helping the God of the Old Testament make all things. You cannot believe that Jesus is seperate from the God of the Old Testament and still believe the God of the Old Testament made all things (ALONE) and by (HIMSELF) .
Shanna could not confirm that verse with a (YES) because it would not be supported by the doctrine she believes in. So rather than confirm what God states so clearly in the Scripture, she refuses to confirm that the verse is true. She will say she believes it, but then will tell you that the reality is that even though she believes that Jesus was a seperate God, He really was helping the God of the Old Testament make all things. You cannot believe that Jesus is seperate from the God of the Old Testament and still believe the God of the Old Testament made all things (ALONE) and by (HIMSELF) .
Please, Campbell. As I shared, I believe that Jesus is the Word made flesh, the image of the invisible God, reveals the invisible God, is the Son of God, has the right to be called God because God gave Him this right. God gave Him all authority. All things came into being through Jesus but all is out of the Father. Jesus came forth from the Father, was sent by the Father, returned to the Father. He is to be subjected to the Father. The Father is greater. When we "look" at Jesus, we "see" the invisible God. God bless.
Does absolute Deity have a Deity? Does absolute Deity worship another Deity? Is absolute Deity subject to another Deity? The Son will be subjected to the Father and this , for example, lets me know that one is Supreme.
John 5: 30 I can of myself do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is righteous; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Who gave Jesus all authority? Who will be subjected to Whom according to 1 Corinthians 15?
God, who is all things, the Supreme Being, is subject to another God, a Supreme Being, who is all things? God, who has all authority is given authority by God who has all authority? How can one who is absolute Deity appeal to a Deity? Everything that Jesus has comes from the Father, doesn't it? Isn't He dependent on the Father? No one can give the Father anything that is not already His. So who is greater?
John 14
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but byme.
7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
27Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Tell me why you cannot confirm Gods own words in Isaiah 44:24 with an affirmative (YES)?
Tell us why you can not answer the question as to who made you? Are you not sure who made you? Do you have doubts about it? Do you need to talk to your pastor about it? Maybe you need to meet with the church elders and get their opinions about it. I find it very strange how you keep hammering away at shana for not answering your question eventhough she has several times but you refuse to answer a simple question as to who created you. For a christian not to be able to answer the simple question as to who created him says a lot about that person`s belief in my opinion.
Please, Campbell. As I shared, I believe that Jesus is the Word made flesh, the image of the invisible God, reveals the invisible God, is the Son of God, has the right to be called God because God gave Him this right. God gave Him all authority. All things came into being through Jesus but all is out of the Father. Jesus came forth from the Father, was sent by the Father, returned to the Father. He is to be subjected to the Father. The Father is greater. When we "look" at Jesus, we "see" the invisible God. God bless.
Does absolute Deity have a Deity? Does absolute Deity worship another Deity? Is absolute Deity subject to another Deity? The Son will be subjected to the Father and this , for example, lets me know that one is Supreme.
John 5: 30 I can of myself do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is righteous; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Who gave Jesus all authority? Who will be subjected to Whom according to 1 Corinthians 15?
God, who is all things, the Supreme Being, is subject to another God, a Supreme Being, who is all things? God, who has all authority is given authority by God who has all authority? How can one who is absolute Deity appeal to a Deity? Everything that Jesus has comes from the Father, doesn't it? Isn't He dependent on the Father? No one can give the Father anything that is not already His. So who is greater?
John 14
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but byme.
7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
27Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Good post shana. I`ve come to believe that those that are so indoctrinated into the church system and beliefs are incapable of seeing the truth in God`s word because they have been blinded. No amount of reasoning or listing of scripture will lift the veil from their eyes. I know it seems amazing at times when the truth is just so plain to the one`s God has chosen but yet the church has so misled the masses. They would rather believe man and his teachings than the plain truth of scripture. Look at some on here who call themselves christian and say they have the love of God ...they have no problem saying your belief is heresy and you don`t have the spirit of God but they take much offence when you call their teaching heresy and say perhaps they are the ones misled. Some have even tried to turn this thread into another universalism theme...amazing! There are even many in the church who can`t explain the trinity but they just believe it because the church tells them it`s true. Even on this thread has anyone been able to really make sense of it?..and we know the reason...it`s heresy. At least campbell admits that Jesus isn`t the Father which some on here actually believe. But he has not been able to make sense of how they are one if they are not the same. But we know that God is in control and he will eventually lift the veil from their eyes so they can walk in the truth and light of God`s word.
Campbell, Jesus repeatedly says that he has been given everything that he has from God his Father - that means that before he was given life in himself he did not have it but his Father did His Father (God) preceded him.
Excellent meerkat. Another plain truth from scripture. Did anyone give God the Father anything? Of course not. He is the one supreme being..above all. I see meerkat that you believe God`s word, that God has opened your eyes and mind to his word. That you would rather believe God`s word than man`s teaching. God bless!
God said let there be light {216}on the first day ........ the sun was created on the 4th day ref Gen 1:16 ....... the light separated from the darkness is different than the sun, moon and stars
Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights{3974}; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also.
The word for lights is
H3974
מארה מאורה מאר מאור
mâ'ôr mâ'ôr me'ôrâh me'ôrâh
(1,2) maw-ore', (3,4) meh-o-raw'
From H215; properly a luminous body or luminary, that is, (abstractly) light (as an element); figuratively brightness, that is, cheerfulness; specifically a chandelier: - bright, light.
H216
אור
'ôr
ore
From H215; illumination or (concretely) luminary (in every sense, including lightning, happiness, etc.): - bright, clear, + day, light (-ning), morning, sun.
Good post shana. I`ve come to believe that those that are so indoctrinated into the church system and beliefs are incapable of seeing the truth in God`s word because they have been blinded. No amount of reasoning or listing of scripture will lift the veil from their eyes. I know it seems amazing at times when the truth is just so plain to the one`s God has chosen but yet the church has so misled the masses. They would rather believe man and his teachings than the plain truth of scripture. Look at some on here who call themselves christian and say they have the love of God ...they have no problem saying your belief is heresy and you don`t have the spirit of God but they take much offence when you call their teaching heresy and say perhaps they are the ones misled. Some have even tried to turn this thread into another universalism theme...amazing! There are even many in the church who can`t explain the trinity but they just believe it because the church tells them it`s true. Even on this thread has anyone been able to really make sense of it?..and we know the reason...it`s heresy. At least campbell admits that Jesus isn`t the Father which some on here actually believe. But he has not been able to make sense of how they are one if they are not the same. But we know that God is in control and he will eventually lift the veil from their eyes so they can walk in the truth and light of God`s word.
You made some excellent points, Dave!
Quote:
Look at some on here who call themselves christian and say they have the love of God ...they have no problem saying your belief is heresy and you don`t have the spirit of God but they take much offence when you call their teaching heresy and say perhaps they are the ones misled.
I have already answered, Campbell. Thank you for sharing your belief. God bless.
It's like beating a dead horse.
One of the key points to remember is that this topic is NEVER discussed , debated or even remotely spoken about in the bible among any of the Biblical characters mentioned in the Bible, including Jesus Christ himself. Never are all those sophisticated sounding invented words they like to use like Trinity, Godhead, Universalism, Preterism, Dispensationalism, Christology, etc ever originated from the bible. These were created long after the bible's writtings were completed.
When the foretold apostasy infiltrated Christianity in the 3rd & 4th centuries, the apostate religious leaders of those times invented the various Nicean Creeds, Athanasian Creeds , etc to try and explain this pagan belief system. Why create Creeds??? They had to, because it was'nt to be found anywhere in the bible. Instead we are to believe that it is mysteriously encryted in words and expressions which only certain intellectuals are able to decypher and teach to us. If it is such a major doctrine, then why did'nt Almight God have it clearly worded and explained throughout his word to help the common man learn an important truth ??? Instead, we don't even find one conversation where it was discussed, debated or even remotely alluded to by anybody, including the Almighty himself.
You know what is one of the biggest stumbling blocks to them is most translations shun the use of the tetragrammaton or divine name Jehovah or Yahweh. Scholars almost everywhere acknowledge it should be restored to it's original place in the Bible where it was diliberately removed more than 7,000 times. Take for example his flavourite scripture he so adamantly wants to shove down your throat. Let's look at it from several translations that retain the divine name.
Isaiah 44:24 - American Standard Version
Quote:
"Thus saith Jehovah, thy Redeemer, and he that formed thy from the womb: I am Jehovah, that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone, that spreadeth abraod the earth (Who is with me?);
Isaiah 44:24 - Darby Translation
Quote:
"Thus saith Jehovah, thy Redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb: I [am] Jehovah, the maker of all things; who alone stretched out the heavens, who did spread the earth by myself;
Isaiah 44:24 - New Jerusalem Bible
Quote:
"Thus says Yahweh, your redeemer, he who formed you in the womb: I Yahweh, have made all things, I alone spread out the heavens. When I hammered the earth into shape, who was with me?"
Isaiah 44:24 - Young's Literal Translation
Quote:
"Thus said Jehovah, thy redeemer, And thy framer from the womb: I [am] Jehovah, doing all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, spreading out the earth -- who [is] with me?"
First we have to note who God was speaking to here. The words are directed to the nation of Israel. During the days of Isaiah, images are being worshipped. In the frank and clear discussion recorded in this 44th chapter of Isaiah's prophetic book, it is shown how futile image or idol worship is. God's own chosen people had fallen into the trap of Idol Worshipping. Hence, as you can see in the previous chapters of Isaiah, the Israelites are in line for some strong discipline. Lovingly, though, as the scripture above shows us, Jehovah/Yahweh offers reassurence that although he will allow the Babylonians to take his people into captivity, he will deliver them in his own due time. The fullfilment of the prophecies of deliverence from captivity and of restoration of pure worship will prove beyond any doubt that Jehovah/Yahweh alone is the true God, to the shame of all who worship lifeless gods of the nations.
So the question here at Isaiah 44:24 is certainly not the first time the question was asked of humans of where they were when things were created. Jehovah asked the same question of Job.
Job 38:4 - New International Version
Quote:
"Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me if you understand.
So the question is directed at humans and of course no human was present. However there were Jesus and billions of other Angels present when the physical heavens (universe) and earth were created. So obviously Jehovah/Yahweh was not lying when he said that he was alone when making these physical creations, since the question was directed to where humans were. The scripture at Isaiah was simply being directed at humans and where they were at the beginning of creation and was not meant as some far out mysterious encrypted Da Vinci-like code where only a handful of supposedly chosen individuals could explain them to us.
Here's a further interesting example in Isaiah.
Repeatedly the scriptures refer to God as Savior.
Isaiah 43:11 - American Standard Version
Quote:
"I, even I, am Jehovah, and besides me there is no saviour."
Since Jesus is also refered to as Savior, are we to conclude that God and Jesus are the same? Hardly! Titus 1:3,4 speaks of "God our Savior", and then of both "God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior." So , both persons here are saviors. Take a look at how this relationship is described at
Jude 23 - American Standard Version
Quote:
"to the only God our Saviour, through Jesus Christ our Lord."
This is the same understanding mentioned about David's offspring and the promised seed mentioned at
Acts 13:23 - American Standard Version
Quote:
"Of this man's seed hath God according to promise brought unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus."
Notice who else is spoken of as a Savior in the Bible.
Judges 3:9 - American Standard Version
Quote:
"And when the children of Israel cried unto Jehovah, Jehovah raised up a saviour to the children of Israel, who saved them, even Othniel the son of Kenaz, Caleb's younger brother."
The same Hebrew word, (moh shi'a' rendered "savior" or "deliverer") that is used at Isaiah 43:11 is applied to Othniel, a judge in Israel, but certainly did not make Othniel Jehovah, did it? Now if we read the whole account at Isaiah 43:1-12 we see that Isaiah 43, verse 11 , means that Jehovah alone is the One who provides salvation, or deliverence, for his people Israel. That salvation did not come from any of the other gods of the surrounding nations.
If we go back to Isaiah 44:24 and also include verses 25-28 we see that Jehovah also appointed another savior in the man called Cyrus who God would use to free his people from Babylonian bondage. Still no matter who God appoints as savior, it is Jehovah who is the real savior of his people.
Isn't it interesting when you consider the whole context surrounding the scriptural text. Trinitarians can be compared to the Pharisees who Jesus accuse of "straining the gnat" or "splitting nose hairs" as it were to prove a pagan concept from the Bible.
My advice to you ShanaBrown is to consider Jesus own words when instructing his disciples against worthless debates at Matthew 7:6 - "New Jerusalem Bible"
Quote:
"Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls in front of pigs, or they may trample them and then turn on you and tear you to pieces."
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