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Well it is the God of the Old Testament who claims He made all things (ALONE) and (BY HIMSELF).
And in the New Testament, Jesus is said to of made all things (BY HIMSELF).
This is not a question of who supervised who. They both claim to of created all things (THEMSELVES).
I'm sorry, either they are (ONE GOD) who created all things together, or they are two seperate Gods, and one of them is not telling us the truth.
The belief is that Jesus IS the GOD of the old testament. That makes both statements true.
There's an almighty God, which is Jesus' father and there's a God which is Jesus.
Let me get this straight. When God said US he was talking WE in the singular form and when he said HE he meant ME in the plural?
It could'nt be further from the truth. They want you to believe there is some mysterious encrypted phraze or wording that only they themselves have been enlightened to decypher and all light and truth must be obtained through them. Unfortunately, the Bible was not written solely for these so-called sophisticated philosophical intellectuals. It was written for the common man and much to the dismay of those who would want to hold power and authority over others.
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Originally Posted by offthefence
Making the claim you did something " alone and by myself" doesn't in any way mean you couldn't have been supervised.
If your building a house and the building inspector shows up occasionally to make sure your doing it right doesn't mean you didn't build it "alone and by yourself"?
If the Almighty God showed up on occasion to inspect Jesus' work Jesus still did the work "alone and by himself".
Many Bible translations reference Jesus at Proverbs 8:30 with similiar expressions in describing his role in working with his Father. "Master Worker" - "Master Craftsman" - "Master and Director of the work" - "Craftsman" - "architech at his side" - "master workman" - "skilled craftsman" - and finally "his [God's] nursling". You can verify these with the biblegateway.com.
No doubt when Jesus was on earth, he learned from his step-father Joseph to be a skill master carpenter. In actual fact Jesus was even called the "carpenter".
It's interesting that what is recorded at Genesis 1:26
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"Let us make man in our image, according to our Likeness"
is not only spoken to this master craftsman - worker- architech , etc, but also those words are spoken in the presence of billions angels as well who were present during all the creative phazes and keenly observing and being directed to whatever capacity Almighty God purposed. Jesus and the Angels also, like mankind , were created in God's image in that they also had Jehovah/Yahweh's attributes of Love, Wisdom, Power, reasoning ability, free-will , etc. Man was given these to separate himself from the rest of creation over which he was to hold dominion over.
So again when the words were spoken, "let us make man in our image, according to our likeness", he was not talking to himself as if he were a two-in-one god or three-in-one god. He was talking to at least one other heavenly person separate and distinct from himself and was inviting that person to join him in producing an earthly human creature. It should also be noted however, that before the creation of man and woman, there was more than one spirit person in association with God. There were spirit persons whom God had created long before of even the creation of the Earth itself. This fact is brought to our attention when God was questioning the man Job asking him where he was at the time of creation at
Job 38:1-7 - New International Version
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"Where were you when I laid the earth's foundations? Tell me if you understand. . . Who marked off it's measurements? . . . who laid it's cornerstone? . . . . while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy."
So when those famous words were utter in Jesus presence, they were also uttered in the presence of billions of spirit creatures called Angels who no doubt were given various assignments involving the creation of our entire universe.
It has been demanded that you should ONLY give a YES or NO answer ONLY. Anything else is unacceptable. First of all, you are not obligated to answer to anyone except Almighty God himself. The poster has a twisted spin reply to whatever you answer in the YES - No game. It has been satisfactorily answer by many here and it has infuriated some. All that there is left to reply is , "So be it".
The belief is that Jesus IS the GOD of the old testament. That makes both statements true.
There's an almighty God, which is Jesus' father and there's a God which is Jesus.
Well the problem with that belief is that the God which is speaking in Isaiah 44:24 states, that He is the God that (maketh all things). If you believe that Jesus is a created being, then it should be understood Jesus did not create Himself, and thus, he could not be the God of Isaiah 44:24. Because the God of Isaiah 44:24 is the God that created all things which would include Jesus. So to suggest that Jesus was the God of the Old Testament would not fit, especially if you believe he was a created being.
Now I do not believe that Jesus was a created God, I believe He was with the Father from the beginning.
Matthew 26:39: Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."
There are other passages as well where Jesus separates himself from God. If Jesus=God, then he is talking to himself. But he clearly does not think that his own will is the same as God's will, which means he doesn't know he is the same as God. Schizophrenia, or polytheism.
Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I [am] the LORD that maketh all [things]; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
He says he makes all things - (this is done through Christ), he stretcheth forth the heaven alone, earth by myself - It is only the heaven and the earth that he says he makes alone, by himself
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.
The making all things and the reconciling all things are things that are in heaven or earth (not the heaven and the earth)
Matthew 26:39: Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."
There are other passages as well where Jesus separates himself from God. If Jesus=God, then he is talking to himself. But he clearly does not think that his own will is the same as God's will, which means he doesn't know he is the same as God. Schizophrenia, or polytheism.
Matthew 26:39: Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."
There are other passages as well where Jesus separates himself from God. If Jesus=God, then he is talking to himself. But he clearly does not think that his own will is the same as God's will, which means he doesn't know he is the same as God. Schizophrenia, or polytheism.
Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are different and seperated, they have different funtions, yet they together = One God. And that is why the God of the Old Testament can say He made all things (ALONE) and (BY HIMSELF) and Jesus can say He made all things (HIMSELF). They can say this, because they are the same God. And that is why Christians can say Isaiah 44:24 is true, and others who do not believe in a Triune God cannot. If you ask those who do not believe in a three in one God, to confirm God's Words in Isaiah 44:24 as true. They cannot. They will do the old song and dance routine, but they cannot confirm His words with a (YES).
Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I [am] the LORD that maketh all [things]; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
He says he makes all things - (this is done through Christ), he stretcheth forth the heaven alone, earth by myself - It is only the heaven and the earth that he says he makes alone, by himself
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.
The making all things and the reconciling all things are things that are in heaven or earth (not the heaven and the earth)
The God that is speaking makes plain that He made all things. And it is the earth that both the Father claims to of made Himself, and the New Testament claims Jesus made. So your still left with the problem. The Old Testament states that the God of the Old Testament made the earth (ALONE) and (BY HIMSELF), and the New testament tells us Jesus made the earth (HIMSELF). You cannot have to seperate Gods both claiming they made the earth each (BY THEMSELVES).
Good post shana. I`ve come to believe that those that are so indoctrinated into the church system and beliefs are incapable of seeing the truth in God`s word because they have been blinded. No amount of reasoning or listing of scripture will lift the veil from their eyes. I know it seems amazing at times when the truth is just so plain to the one`s God has chosen but yet the church has so misled the masses. They would rather believe man and his teachings than the plain truth of scripture. Look at some on here who call themselves christian and say they have the love of God ...they have no problem saying your belief is heresy and you don`t have the spirit of God but they take much offence when you call their teaching heresy and say perhaps they are the ones misled. Some have even tried to turn this thread into another universalism theme...amazing! There are even many in the church who can`t explain the trinity but they just believe it because the church tells them it`s true. Even on this thread has anyone been able to really make sense of it?..and we know the reason...it`s heresy. At least campbell admits that Jesus isn`t the Father which some on here actually believe. But he has not been able to make sense of how they are one if they are not the same. But we know that God is in control and he will eventually lift the veil from their eyes so they can walk in the truth and light of God`s word.
spm62, can you confirm Isaiah 44:24. Does that verse speak the Truth?
Did the God of the Old Testament really make the earth (ALONE) and
(BY HIMSELF)? Is that (TRUE) or (FALSE)?
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