Did Mark Plagiarize Esther? (Gospel, believe, Bible, Kingdom)

[thrillobyte]

Note the exactitudes:

Book of Esther:

And on the second day, as they were drinking wine after the feast, the king again said to Esther, "What is your wish, Queen Esther? It shall be granted you. And what is your request? Even to the half of my kingdom, it shall be fulfilled." Esther 7:2

Gospel of Mark:

And when the daughter of the said Herodias came in, and danced, and pleased Herod and them that sat with him, the king said unto the damsel, "Ask me for whatever you wish, and I will grant it."
And he vowed to her, "Whatever you ask me, I will give you, even half of my kingdom." Mark 6:22-23

Note that not only does Herod repeat verbatim what King Ahasuerus says to Esther, "...even to the half of my kingdom", BUT, and here's the kicker, both kings repeat the promise twice: "Ask what you will and I will grant it. Ask anything and it will be given to you, even to half of my kingdom."

I mean now come on!!!

This is stolen from the Old Testament pure and simple. Mark obviously knew the story of Esther and Ahasuerus and he copies it detail for detail because it fit so well into his account of how Herod had John the Baptist killed: a drunken Herod promising Salome half his kingdom if she will dance and Salome making a request of the king afterward just as Esther did.

These are the kinds of minute details hardly any Christians know about. When taken together, they shoot the Bible's credibility to pieces, and Christians either tuck their heads conveniently in the sand and carry on as if nothing is amiss, or they begin to research more of these Bible stories, find holes in them big enough to sail a ship through, and eventually leave Christianity.

[Peacegiver]

Just as we have sayings these days so did other cultures as well. Who are we to say this saying was not widely used by the nobles of their day. Some people will use anything to discredit the bible and say all of it is bunk. Some is but not all.

[expatCA]

Originally Posted by thrillobyte

Note the exactitudes:

Book of Esther:



Gospel of Mark:



Note that not only does Herod repeat verbatim what King Ahasuerus says to Esther, "...even to the half of my kingdom", BUT, and here's the kicker, both kings repeat the promise twice: "Ask what you will and I will grant it. Ask anything and it will be given to you, even to half of my kingdom."

I mean now come on!!!

This is stolen from the Old Testament pure and simple. Mark obviously knew the story of Esther and Ahasuerus and he copies it detail for detail because it fit so well into his account of how Herod had John the Baptist killed: a drunken Herod promising Salome half his kingdom if she will dance and Salome making a request of the king afterward just as Esther did.

These are the kinds of minute details hardly any Christians know about. When taken together, they shoot the Bible's credibility to pieces, and Christians either tuck their heads conveniently in the sand and carry on as if nothing is amiss, or they begin to research more of these Bible stories, find holes in them big enough to sail a ship through, and eventually leave Christianity.

First God can't plarigize Himself. It is all His word.

Next the expression re-rulkership/kingdom is common, so not unlikely that Mark would use it.

Basically a meaningless attack by those who do not believe and are desperately looking for anything to denigrate the bible. Says more about them than Mark.

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by thrillobyte

Note the exactitudes:

Book of Esther:



Gospel of Mark:



Note that not only does Herod repeat verbatim what King Ahasuerus says to Esther, "...even to the half of my kingdom", BUT, and here's the kicker, both kings repeat the promise twice: "Ask what you will and I will grant it. Ask anything and it will be given to you, even to half of my kingdom."

I mean now come on!!!

This is stolen from the Old Testament pure and simple. Mark obviously knew the story of Esther and Ahasuerus and he copies it detail for detail because it fit so well into his account of how Herod had John the Baptist killed: a drunken Herod promising Salome half his kingdom if she will dance and Salome making a request of the king afterward just as Esther did.

These are the kinds of minute details hardly any Christians know about. When taken together, they shoot the Bible's credibility to pieces, and Christians either tuck their heads conveniently in the sand and carry on as if nothing is amiss, or they begin to research more of these Bible stories, find holes in them big enough to sail a ship through, and eventually leave Christianity.

Mark 6:22 and when the daughter of Herodias herself came in and danced, she pleased Herod and his dinner guests; and the king said to the girl, "Ask me for whatever you want and I will give it to you." 23] And he swore to her, "Whatever you ask of me, I will give it to you; up to half of my kingdom."

Esther 7:2 And the king said to Esther on the second day also as they drank their wine at the banquet, "What is your petition, Queen Esther? It shall be granted you. And what is your request? Even to half of the kingdom it shall be done."

1 Kings 13:8 But the man of God said to the king, "If you were to give me half your house I would not go with you, nor would I eat bread or drink water in this place.

The words ''up to half my kingdom'' may have been a kind of proverbial way of expressing openhanded generosity and were not to be taken literally. [Expositors Bible Commentary, vol. 8, p.670]

Herod simply used a proverbial saying which expressed generosity. See 1 Kings 13:8. No credibility issues.

[Glenfield]

It's an expression. Try again.

[Vizio]

No. That's what Herod said.

[chuckmann]

Sigh

[Cephas40]

Originally Posted by Glenfield

It's an expression. Try again.

Exactly, called hyperbole or a figure of speech. It's discussed is many commentaries and of course all cross-references.

[thrillobyte]

All right, if the consensus is that this was a common expression used over the course of 600-700 years in Israel, then far be it from me to denigrate it. Sounds a trifle suspicious to me, but then there have been very few scholars who have called Mark on it. Let the scholars have the last word, which is that there isn't anything awry going on here. I just call 'em as I see 'em and sometimes I see them wrong.

[expatCA]

Originally Posted by thrillobyte

All right, if the consensus is that this was a common expression used over the course of 600-700 years in Israel, then far be it from me to denigrate it. Sounds a trifle suspicious to me, but then there have been very few scholars who have called Mark on it. Let the scholars have the last word, which is that there isn't anything awry going on here. I just call 'em as I see 'em and sometimes I see them wrong.

Happens to all of us at one time or another.