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I have not read the entire thread, but as I see it, God had no other way to manifest himself than to allow there to be an opposition to WHO and WHAT HE IS. Everything that IS must have CONTRAST in order to BE made manifest. It was necessary that evil be allowed in order that we may know ultimate Goodness. Life/Death - Sorrow/Joy - anything you name will have a contrasting or opposing thing. We do not have FREE will in the sense that God did not ask us "Would you like to be part of my Creation"?
Did God know beforehand that Adam and Eve would choose to disobey God and eat of the fruit? Yes, He's omniscient. It has nothing to do with whether or not God knew before or after Adam was created because Adam would not have had any thoughts. God has shown through prophecy in the Bible He has known things long before the principals involved were even born.
How do you think that Satan was able to tempt Adam and Eve? Doesn't it show us in Job, that Satan can only do things with God's permission? Doesn't this ultimately make the original sin God's problem? God knew what was going to happen, He knew what Adam's choice would be, and He still allowed it. And He had the answer for it all in the Redeemer, Jesus.
Is God illogical? Well, in our finite perception, He may seem to be. But do we consider that we have been looking at these things from the wrong perspective? Are we expecting an answer based on our assuptions? I think that this is many times the case.
Adam had free choice, and so does everyone. God made us that way, and we all exercise the act of choice. One of the problems we have in this area, is that, we place free will against no will. We place ourselves in some kind of a control mode, like as if our decision, one way or another, is going to change things, even in a small way.
I can say this: We can choose things in our life through our free will, but the thing that we fail to consider is that God is operating His plan with the foreknowledge of all our decisions. As a good father, God gives those that are trying to know Him, what will happen if we take a choice. That's only fair. And if we choose wrongly, there may be consequences. But the consequences are the very thing that not only balances things out in God's overall plan, but it helps us to mature. Like a father will try to teach his children to stay away from a hot burner on the stove, and the reason why. And he knows that there is a chance that one of his own may burn themseves, yet he doesn't spend his time in the kitchen guarding the stove, and the father also realizes that IF one of the kids gets burned, it will be a lesson that the little one will probably never forget. A mistake in getting burned is a painful thing, but the father knows that the child will learn from it, and he also knows that perhaps his children may even learn without getting burned. In any event, the outcome is the same. The children will learn to stay away from a hot burner.
God has told us, and He has set up examples in nature, to show that through death comes life. Seed dies in the earth to form a new tree. A worm dies to become a butterfly. Jesus said that unless a corn (seed) of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it will abide alone, but if it dies, it will bear much fruit. Death is ugly and cruel in our perception, but the result far outweighs the present life.
We are SO afraid to die, we are often blinded to the result of death. The result of death is life. There is NO WAY that any of us will get to the other side through this flesh. Yet we hang on to it and judge most of what we see and hear through the flesh.
Adam was created a sinless being, the first of God's creation. We know by the fact that he was able to name all the creatures, and also that the names of those creatures carried a descriptiveness of them, that Adam must have been incredibly intelligent. We also know that one of the first things that Adam did after he disobeyed was that he hid and that he realized that he was naked. He came to this realization because he became conscious of it for the first time AFTER disobeying. In other words, Adam was affected by his consciousness for the first time. Before the disobedience, Adam was innocent of sin and his conciousness. So, think of this: Could God trust a son that was full of innocence and had no experience?
God's overall purpose is to raise a family. And as a good father, He would want to raise a family that is experienced. He would teach everyone in His family how to think correctly, so that they would be safe in the universe that He has created. Once the universe reaches maturity, wouldn't God want his sons and daughters to think like He thinks? It would be the safest thing possible. But Adam couldn't think like God because he was innocent as a baby, and God knew that the development of mankind from the baby stage to full maturity would only come through experience, and experience comes from having to deal with things that may seem hard, wrong, ugly, etc, etc, etc.
What I'm saying is, God allowed Satan to do what he did with Adam and Eve, and God wanted him to sin so that the earth and mankind could develop and grow to maturity. Death is the way to eternal life! Only our self protection of this flesh and our fear of death keeps us from seeing it. That's why so many NDE people say afterwards that they no longer fear death. They know of the truth of the other side! Their barrier has been removed.
What is the end of all things in the plan of God? Is it not to have a people that are perfect, without sin, and immortal? Is it not for them to have a resurrected body like the body of Jesus, a body that will last forever and be indestructible and independent of the physical restrictions that we now have? Is it not to have the ability to have the mind of Christ, where we automatically think perfectly, just like Jesus, yet still each have a different personality? Is it not to have a universe populated by people that know right from wrong through experience, and having the ability to do the right thing every time, because we have God's law witten within our very being? Is this not a better return on God's plan than we would have ever thought of? Is this not 'God's will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven'? And isn't this a better life than Adam would have ever had if he had remained innocent and unable to distinguish obedience from disobedience?
The only place I would disagree is that Adam was perfect. However he still had the ability, as did Satan a perfect angel, to chose to turn from God. Perfection does not eliminate freedom and ability to chose, it would be a real part of it"
Thanks for sharing expatCa. I just believe that if Adam was perfect, he would have made the right choice. He would have known better than to disobey God, just like Jesus knew that He would have never gone against the Father.He knew the Father but did Adam really know God if he failed to follow His instructions? Just my belief. God bless and peace.
If Yahweh "didn't" know than Yahweh is now found to be weaker than how he used to be purported to be by his loving followers. Being able to uphold a paradox and maintain such irrationality (as allowing free-choice but knowing the concrete choice since before allowing it) is a great power.
But the philosophy is clear, to not have determinism (or to have whatever "free-will" might mean), Yahweh or any other claimed Creator and Upholder and Ruling God would have to only know possibilities of choices, not choices themselves. If he plans and knows some "end game" then somehow all "choices" would have to lead to it, which isn't very free. Other questions are left open, like: how does Yahweh choose when you will be born? How is punishing children up to the 9th generation for the sins of their forefathers a "free choice" by children? Etc.
I have not read the entire thread, but as I see it, God had no other way to manifest himself than to allow there to be an opposition to WHO and WHAT HE IS. Everything that IS must have CONTRAST in order to BE made manifest. It was necessary that evil be allowed in order that we may know ultimate Goodness. Life/Death - Sorrow/Joy - anything you name will have a contrasting or opposing thing. We do not have FREE will in the sense that God did not ask us "Would you like to be part of my Creation"?
this is true, and a good assessment. God manifested himself by his total creation, (which is accounted for in Genesis 1). and then manifested himself PERSONALLY in flesh, bone, and blood, (John 1). for the word Adam simply means "another", like God himself. for the first man was the figure of God to Come, (see Romans 5:14). Adam was just the IMAGE, not the real MAN, but was made in God's IMAGE, for the whole creation is Just that, "A CREATION". this world, this universe, and everything in it. this is not the real world we live in, we live in a created world.
Did God know beforehand that Adam and Eve would choose to disobey God and eat
of the fruit? Yes, He's omniscient. It has nothing to do with whether or not God
knew before or after Adam was created because Adam would not have had any
thoughts. God has shown through prophecy in the Bible He has known things long
before the principals involved were even born.
How do you think that Satan was able to tempt Adam and Eve? Doesn't it show
us in Job, that Satan can only do things with God's permission? Doesn't this
ultimately make the original sin God's problem? God knew what was going to
happen, He knew what Adam's choice would be, and He still allowed it. And He had
the answer for it all in the Redeemer, Jesus.
Is God illogical? Well, in our finite perception, He may seem to be. But do
we consider that we have been looking at these things from the wrong
perspective? Are we expecting an answer based on our assuptions? I think that
this is many times the case.
Adam had free choice, and so does everyone. God made us that way, and we all
exercise the act of choice. One of the problems we have in this area, is that,
we place free will against no will. We place ourselves in some kind of a control
mode, like as if our decision, one way or another, is going to change things,
even in a small way.
I can say this: We can choose things in our life through our free will, but
the thing that we fail to consider is that God is operating His plan with the
foreknowledge of all our decisions. As a good father, God gives those that are
trying to know Him, what will happen if we take a choice. That's only fair. And
if we choose wrongly, there may be consequences. But the consequences are the
very thing that not only balances things out in God's overall plan, but it helps
us to mature. Like a father will try to teach his children to stay away from a
hot burner on the stove, and the reason why. And he knows that there is a chance
that one of his own may burn themseves, yet he doesn't spend his time in the
kitchen guarding the stove, and the father also realizes that IF one of the kids
gets burned, it will be a lesson that the little one will probably never forget.
A mistake in getting burned is a painful thing, but the father knows that the
child will learn from it, and he also knows that perhaps his children may even
learn without getting burned. In any event, the outcome is the same. The
children will learn to stay away from a hot burner.
God has told us, and He has set up examples in nature, to show that through
death comes life. Seed dies in the earth to form a new tree. A worm dies to
become a butterfly. Jesus said that unless a corn (seed) of wheat falls to the
ground and dies, it will abide alone, but if it dies, it will bear much fruit.
Death is ugly and cruel in our perception, but the result far outweighs the
present life.
We are SO afraid to die, we are often blinded to the result of death. The
result of death is life. There is NO WAY that any of us will get to the other
side through this flesh. Yet we hang on to it and judge most of what we see and
hear through the flesh.
Adam was created a sinless being, the first of God's creation. We know by
the fact that he was able to name all the creatures, and also that the names of
those creatures carried a descriptiveness of them, that Adam must have been
incredibly intelligent. We also know that one of the first things that Adam did
after he disobeyed was that he hid and that he realized that he was naked. He
came to this realization because he became conscious of it for the first time
AFTER disobeying. In other words, Adam was affected by his consciousness for the
first time. Before the disobedience, Adam was innocent of sin and his
conciousness. So, think of this: Could God trust a son that was full of
innocence and had no experience?
God's overall purpose is to raise a family. And as a good father, He would
want to raise a family that is experienced. He would teach everyone in His
family how to think correctly, so that they would be safe in the universe that
He has created. Once the universe reaches maturity, wouldn't God want his sons
and daughters to think like He thinks? It would be the safest thing possible.
But Adam couldn't think like God because he was innocent as a baby, and God knew
that the development of mankind from the baby stage to full maturity would only
come through experience, and experience comes from having to deal with things
that may seem hard, wrong, ugly, etc, etc, etc.
What I'm saying is, God allowed Satan to do what he did with Adam and Eve,
and God wanted him to sin so that the earth and mankind could develop and grow
to maturity. Death is the way to eternal life! Only our self protection of this
flesh and our fear of death keeps us from seeing it. That's why so many NDE
people say afterwards that they no longer fear death. They know of the truth of
the other side! Their barrier has been removed.
What is the end of all things in the plan of God? Is it not to have a people
that are perfect, without sin, and immortal? Is it not for them to have a
resurrected body like the body of Jesus, a body that will last forever and be
indestructible and independent of the physical restrictions that we now have? Is
it not to have the ability to have the mind of Christ, where we automatically
think perfectly, just like Jesus, yet still each have a different personality?
Is it not to have a universe populated by people that know right from wrong
through experience, and having the ability to do the right thing every time,
because we have God's law witten within our very being? Is this not a better
return on God's plan than we would have ever thought of? Is this not 'God's will
be done, on earth as it is in Heaven'? And isn't this a better life than Adam
would have ever had if he had remained innocent and unable to distinguish
obedience from disobedience?
Trumpethim, I think that we are sharing the same thing, just in a different way. Yes, I believe that it is about bring us into maturity. You are right, Adam, was innocent but He wasn't mature. Thank you for sharing. God bless and peace.
I have not read the entire thread, but as I see it, God
had no other way to manifest himself than to allow there to be an opposition to
WHO and WHAT HE IS. Everything that IS must have CONTRAST in order to BE made
manifest. It was necessary that evil be allowed in order that we may know
ultimate Goodness. Life/Death - Sorrow/Joy - anything you name will have a
contrasting or opposing thing. We do not have FREE will in the sense that God
did not ask us "Would you like to be part of my Creation"?
The only way it makes sense for God to know and Him still creating, is if everyone will eventually be saved. So I believe most of you are universalists, which again if true then okay.
Now I disagree with a thought that's been thrown around. That we had to experience sin and tragedy to know God's love and what righteousness is. I totally disagree with that. Say if that was true, then Adam really didn't have a choice but to disobey. Imagine if he didn't. Then according to that thought, Adam would have never known God's true nature. So Adam had no choice but to disobey, and thus he never really had a choice. I see a lot of eating and having the same cake around here.
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