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All sin is against God, since He is our creator. Sin disrupted His plan for our lives. Jesus' blood sacrifice paid for our sins. Hence, we can be made righteous toward God, through Christ.
1 John 4:10
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Well, again jimmie, that passage doesn't say that a payment was made to God, or to God's holiness. If you put it together with the other passages that you've already quoted, then the ransom/propitiation was NOT paid to God, unless you believe God is the one holding us hostage, or is the cause of an "empty life".
"The wages of sin" ... that's what sin "pays" to us, not something we pay to God.
You assume that the ransom God paid was to Himself (or to his holiness). The text does not say that. It says that God paid a ransom to save us from an empty life, so unless God is the cause of that empty life, then God's not the recipient of the ransom either.
This has always been an interpretation that seems to elude virtually every Christian, Pleroo. Christ paid His life TO our barbaric ancestors through scourging and crucifixion . . . NOT to God. But the barbarians were so indoctrinated into blood sacrifices to God that they automatically interpreted Christ's agape loving sacrifice to the savagery and barbarity of our ancestors "sin" (ignorance and missing the mark) . . . as if it must have been the ultimate blood sacrifice to God. But it was a message that God does NOT want sacrifices of the innocent and NEVER did. He wants mercy as found in agape love toward life.
We're not talking about our hate, but rather God hating evil.
I disagree. When I see how my sin offends my Savior, I want to turn away from it & live in righteousness.
You'll learn one day that nothing moves or offends God. He abides in love and peace and never is moved from them. What you subscribe to (and i mean this in sincerity for this was me too for many years) is an understanding of God minus Christ making God known to you , for Christ not the bible makes known to us the God we never knew.
The mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people. To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
The message to the believer is look to Christ, but you will not find him on the pages of a book, you will just find out how to find him there.
This has always been an interpretation that seems to elude virtually every Christian, Pleroo. Christ paid His life TO our barbaric ancestors through scourging and crucifixion . . . NOT to God. But the barbarians were so indoctrinated into blood sacrifices to God that they automatically interpreted Christ's agape loving sacrifice to the savagery and barbarity of our ancestors "sin" (ignorance and missing the mark) . . . as if it must have been the ultimate blood sacrifice to God. But it was a message that God does NOT want sacrifices of the innocent and NEVER did. He wants mercy as found in agape love toward life.
Indeed.
And all it takes is a perspective shift.
Once that shift happens in a person's heart and mind... there is no going back.
The veil is lifted, truth is known.
God = Pure agape love.
"The wages of sin" ... that's what sin "pays" to us, not something we pay to God.
You assume that the ransom God paid was to Himself (or to his holiness). The text does not say that. It says that God paid a ransom to save us from an empty life, so unless God is the cause of that empty life, then God's not the recipient of the ransom either.
Sin is a debt which owed to God, and that payment is death (spiritual and physical).
Being humanity could not repay the dept owed, God took on humanity and paid the debt owed by humanity. 1 John 4:10
That is why many people go to great lengths to avoid the truth that God hates. For many find the message of the cross foolish. Without the hate of God being present, there would be no purpose for the death of Jesus on the cross.
Sin is a debt which owed to God, and that payment is death (spiritual and physical).
Being humanity could not repay the dept owed, God took on humanity and paid the debt owed by humanity. 1 John 4:10
That is why many people go to great lengths to avoid the truth that God hates. For many find the message of the cross foolish. Without the hate of God being present, there would be no purpose for the death of Jesus on the cross.
So we know when the bible talks about sinning it means missing the mark, how do you owe God a debt for missing the mark ?, don't throw a bunch of bible verses at me as if that would be an adequate answer for me because it isn't and need you to expound the scriptures you are using.
Then can you tell me how someone can hit the mark when the ability to do so is not in them according to orthodox christianity?.
What continually missing the mark does to to you is to cause dejection and dejection brings condemnation upon yourself. So the person missing the mark needs someone who will take their shots for them or be taught how to hit the target.
God is not out to show us what a worthless vile sorry excuse for human being that we are, but to get us to see reason we miss the mark is because i am the instructor of life is not our instructor.
How can you condemn someone for not having the ability to do what is required of them ?.
Camps expects a torrent of bible verses thrown at him to try and beat him down for trying to reason and get honest answers.
Interesting comments about whether Jesus died FOR God.
I believe He died FOR US. However, to see His death aside from a relationship to God the Father is removing the dichotomy of the cross.
It is relatively strange for me to see one poster state that God is "removed" from Christ because that essentially means Christ is "removed" from God. In one sense, at least in this life, none of us are removed from God, the Ground of all Being, although we may certainly be removed from Christ. And then again, speaking of Christ minus the Bible when literally the only record we have of Christ is IN the Bible also seems strange.
So if one removes Christ from the Bible, not a single person alive would have any knowledge at all about Him.
Removing blood sacrifice from the Bible, essentially removes the history of religion--not just Christianity, but almost every major religion, although I might have to review my history of religion book to re-think Buddhism, which is more about sacrifice of oneself.
The Christianity being spread by some Christians on these threads is essentially more Buddhist than Christianity. They believe we will eventually flow back into the Great Sea as a drop of water runs its course over the land to return to its beginnings. Adding Christ into the mix is essentially a gnostic type of belief where all souls pre-existed and were sent to earth in a body to "learn" what it means to rejoin the great I AM. Souls that don't learn the first time around are returned again and again, hopefully improving their lot in life. Basically "working" their way into the Great Sea by trial and experience.
While they are interesting philosophical thoughts they simply are not Christian in an historical sense. None of this can be traced to the early church fathers except Origen, who was a tremendous philosopher, believing essentially the same things as many on this thread do. He believed so much that he castrated himself so that he would not be tempted into sin of the flesh. His own bishop threw him out of the church he headed and he left the area, established a school (in Greece, I think) and grew many followers. Eventually his teachings were leading so many astray from traditional Christian thought that within a few decades he was declared a heretic and many of his writings (he was quite prolific) were destroyed by the early church.
The universalists are not traditional Christians, they are Origenists. I've now read enough about it to believe a separate thread should be developed for Origenists as a large splinter group from Christianity.
He has plenty of writings and they can find their own "bible" amongst them. He, too, believed God does not hate and that eventually all will be saved from their sin through purgatory. This is absolutely a separate religion from the Christian faith that arose out of Judaism.
Well, again jimmie, that passage doesn't say that a payment was made to God, or to God's holiness. If you put it together with the other passages that you've already quoted, then the ransom/propitiation was NOT paid to God, unless you believe God is the one holding us hostage, or is the cause of an "empty life".
This has always been an interpretation that seems to elude virtually every Christian, Pleroo. Christ paid His life TO our barbaric ancestors through scourging and crucifixion . . . NOT to God. But the barbarians were so indoctrinated into blood sacrifices to God that they automatically interpreted Christ's agape loving sacrifice to the savagery and barbarity of our ancestors "sin" (ignorance and missing the mark) . . . as if it must have been the ultimate blood sacrifice to God. But it was a message that God does NOT want sacrifices of the innocent and NEVER did. He wants mercy as found in agape love toward life.
Perhaps that's because your interpretation is in opposition to Scripture.
You'll learn one day that nothing moves or offends God. He abides in love and peace and never is moved from them. What you subscribe to (and i mean this in sincerity for this was me too for many years) is an understanding of God minus Christ making God known to you , for Christ not the bible makes known to us the God we never knew.
The mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people. To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
The message to the believer is look to Christ, but you will not find him on the pages of a book, you will just find out how to find him there.
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