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Not true, his mentor St. Clement of Alexandria was also. There were also other schools, notably in the East that were universalist and many still are. The majority apostate anti-Christ church is not . . . as predicted for the latter days. Remember that even 100 years after Christ (a full century) could easily be considered the latter days . . . let alone the 300 to 500 years it took for the majority to become apostate and deny Origen's universalism as heresy in 553 CE. The majority have been apostate since that time.
There is argument that Clement was NOT a universalist, but that is a subject for another thread.
God still must HATE those who commit the unpardonable sin, despite all the attempts to manipulate Greek and Hebrew words to mean otherwise.
Ages of ages is used in Galatians 1:5, Philippians 4:20, 1 Timothy 1:17, 2 Timothy 4:18, Hebrews 13:21, and 1 Peter 4:11. In each of these cases it refers to the amount of time that God will have glory, honor, and power. The book of Revelation uses this phrase more than any other book. It’s used 14 times in Revelation. Verses 1:6, 5:13, and 7:12 refer to the amount of time God will have glory, honor, and power. Verses 1:18, 4:9, 4:10, 5:14, 10:6, and 15:7 refer to how long Christ will live. Revelation 11:15 refers to how long Christ will reign in his kingdom. Revelation 22:5 refers to how long we will reign with Christ. And finally, there are three verses in Revelation that say how long the wicked will be punished.
Revelation 14:9-11 Another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a great voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead, or on his hand, (10) he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger. He will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. (11) The smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. They have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.
This is for those who explicitly and knowingly reject Christ’s salvation by worshiping the beast and taking his mark of allegiance. The worship of this beast is not like the ignorant who have worshiped idols of wood, stone, gold, and silver. Nor is it like the ignorant worship of money. This beast is a world-government ruler who explicitly blasphemes God, and his name, and his dwelling, and all those who dwell in heaven (Rev 13:5-6.) Thus, this world ruler will be leading the world in the explicit and knowledgeable rejection of Christ’s salvation. That is why he is called the antichrist. In worshiping this beast, the people will be explicitly worshiping Satan (Rev. 13:4) and will thus be denying Christ’s salvation.
This is the unpardonable sin. It cannot be forgiven. Only those who commit the unpardonable sin will be eternally punished. This verse in Revelation effectively disproves Christian Universalism. However, the systems of interpretation used by traditional Calvinist and Arminian theologians have not been able to show why taking the mark of the beast is the same as the unpardonable sin of Hebrews 6 and the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit in Matthew 12 and Mark 3.
Some Universalists have portrayed the fire as being symbolic. But this verse combines the word fire with the word sulfur making it explicitly literal. Also, this verse combines the word ‘tormented,’ making it even more difficult to interpret figuratively. Others have said there is no hell because the wicked ‘sleep.’ This is called ‘soul sleep.’ Perhaps many of the unrighteous souls are asleep right now. But just because this might be true, for some people, after the first death, does not mean it’s true after the second death. This verse explicitly says there is ‘no rest’ for those who take the mark of the beast.
Revelation 19:1-3 After these things I heard something like a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, "Hallelujah! Salvation, power, and glory belong to our God: (2) for true and righteous are his judgments. For he has judged the great prostitute, who corrupted the earth with her sexual immorality, and he has avenged the blood of his servants at her hand." (3) A second said, "Hallelujah! Her smoke goes up forever and ever."
This verse goes along very much with 14:9-11 (quoted above.) Both refer to the smoke that goes up forever and ever. This is the same phrase “forever and ever” (ages of ages) that describes the amount of time God will have glory, honor, and power. This is the same phrase “forever and ever” that describes how long Christ will live. And typically phrases have much more of a precise meaning than do individual words.
Well, at least you are consistent. Take the words of Jesus that fit into one's belief system and deny the rest. It's really a pretty good cop-out.
Warden, I appreciate the strength of your convictions. I don't understand how you can see them in the light of God's love no matter how you come to them. I do NOT appreciate you calling my conviction "cop outs."
Warden, I appreciate the strength of your convictions. I don't understand how you can see them in the light of God's love no matter how you come to them. I do NOT appreicate you calling my conviction "cop outs."
It isn't personal, nate and I'm not certain he can control it. We are dealing with over 30 years of guilt-driven theology that has convinced him that God's hate for his sin of lust is what caused God to have his wife's sister killed before he could act on his lust. He is convinced that it must mean that God hates sin and sinners so much that he would kill rather than let them sin. What we are dealing with is the tremendous cognitive dissonance we are generating within him with our attempts to dissuade him of his perverse theology.
It isn't personal, nate and I'm not certain he can control it. We are dealing with over 30 years of guilt-driven theology that has convinced him that God's hate for his sin of lust is what caused God to have his wife's sister killed before he could act on his lust. He is convinced that it must mean that God hates sin and sinners so much that he would kill rather than let them sin. What we are dealing with is the tremendous cognitive dissonance we are generating within him with our attempts to dissuade him of his perverse theology.
I agree Mystic, it really is difficult to break free from (believe me) but break free we must.
It isn't personal, nate and I'm not certain he can control it. We are dealing with over 30 years of guilt-driven theology that has convinced him that God's hate for his sin of lust is what caused God to have his wife's sister killed before he could act on his lust. He is convinced that it must mean that God hates sin and sinners so much that he would kill rather than let them sin. What we are dealing with is the tremendous cognitive dissonance we are generating within him with our attempts to dissuade him of his perverse theology.
What Clement thought:
Here's a quote from Clement of Alexandria taken from "On the Salvation of the Rich Man":
"For he who in this world welcomes the angel of penitence will not repent at the time he leaves the body, nor be ashamed when he sees the Savior approaching in His glory and with His army. He fears not the fire. But if one chooses to continue and to sin perpetually in pleasures, and values indulgence here above eternal life, and turns away from the Savior, who gives forgiveness; let him no more blame either God, or riches, or his having fallen, but his own soul, which voluntarily perishes."
Stick with Origen, little to argue against his views
Unfortunately, you are still left rejecting Jesus' words that one will NOT BE
FORGIVEN. No ages are mentioned. Not forgiven appears to mean not forgiven.
But if we dwell with God we WILL be forgiven. So Jesus was mistaken or are
there further linguistic hurdles to overcome
Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. NASB
Hi, again not forgiven, means just that, not forgiven. I have not rejected the words of Jesus. The person suffers the consequences of being not forgiven. . Death, the wages of sin, will be abolished one day, so it is not a permanent condition. God bless and peace.
Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. NASB
Hi, again not forgiven, means just that, not forgiven. I have not rejected the words of Jesus. The person suffers the consequences of being not forgiven. . Death, the wages of sin, will be abolished one day, so it is not a permanent condition. God bless and peace.
This age, or the one to come are not inclusive of all ages, over the horizon.
Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. NASB
Hi, again not forgiven, means just that, not forgiven. I have not rejected the words of Jesus. The person suffers the consequences of being not forgiven. . Death, the wages of sin, will be abolished one day, so it is not a permanent condition. God bless and peace.
Re-read post #462. How long is "age of ages?" If it means a limited time or a certain amount of time for the wicked to suffer in purgatory, it must also mean a limited amount of time for God's glory.
There is also much discussion on some threads that "aion" and "aionios" mean essentially the same thing because the adjective "aionious" comes from the noun aion.
But consider this--an argument used by Universalists is that the Greek word for ‘eternal’ does not really mean ‘eternal.’ In other words, they believe that after some period of time the wicked will be able to repent and then be able to go to heaven. The Greek word for ‘age’ is ‘aion.’ The Greek word that is traditionally translated ‘eternal’ is ‘aionios.’ The point being made by Universalists is that ‘aionios’ is the adjective form of the noun ‘aion.’ Both should have the same meaning. If the noun ‘aion’ is simply an age, then adjective ‘aionios’ could not mean eternity.
But does an adjective always have the exact same meaning as the noun form of the same word? The noun ‘dirt’ and the adjective ‘dirty’ would be very related in most people’s minds. Yet the Encarta Dictionary has five meanings for ‘dirt’ and thirteen meanings for ‘dirty.’ Does ‘lovely’ have the exact same meaning as ‘love’? The noun ‘love’ is a much stronger word than the adjective ‘lovely.’ Is everyone who lives in a home ‘homely?’ Most people don’t tend to equate ‘home’ and ‘homely.’ The noun ‘time’ has no implication as to whether it’s long or short. But the adjective ‘timely’ implies a short amount of time. Context becomes a key factor in the interpretation of any word. Equally important is to look at all the various uses of a given word in Scripture.
The New Testament contains the adjective ‘aionios’ 71 times. 44 of these are in reference to our eternal life. Luke 16:9 refers to our eternal home (tabernacle). 2 Corinthians 4:17 refers to our eternal weight of glory. 2 Corinthians 5:1 refers to our eternal bodies in heaven. 2 Titus 2:16 refers to our eternal comfort. Hebrews 5:9 refers to our eternal salvation. Hebrews 9:12 refers to our eternal redemption. Hebrews 9:15 refers to our eternal inheritance. 1 Peter 5:10 refers to our eternal glory in Christ. We would hope that the adjective ‘aionios’ means eternity in these verses. However, I suppose one could argue that during eternity, if one were to decide to intentionally disobey Christ’s commandments, then these eternal promises would no longer apply.
There are other uses of the adjective ‘aionios’ that apply more to God or Christ. It becomes impossible for these adjectives, in these contexts, to mean anything except for eternity. Romans 16:26 refers to the eternal God. 1 Timothy 6:16 refers to the eternal honor and power of Christ. 2 Timothy 2:10 refers to the eternal glory of Jesus. Hebrews 9:14 refers to the eternal Spirit. Hebrews 13:20 refers to the eternal covenant of Christ’s blood. 2 Peter 1:11 refers to the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. (The millennial reign has an end. But Christ’s kingdom itself is eternal.) Revelation 14:6 refers to the eternal gospel. In 2 Corinthians 4:18 Paul contrasts the things seen as being transient and the things unseen as being eternal. In the context of these verses, there is no question that ‘aionios’ truly means eternal.
But when we get to Matthew 25:46, there are vocabulary hijinks to make the punishment of the wicked not "eternal" while the righteous go into life that IS "eternal."
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age of ages and universalism
