Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Again it is NOT some abstract 'evil' that is put to the eternal flame - it is SINNERS, it is PEOPLE, it is all those who have rejected God in life. There is no turning back in hell, there is no turning back in the flame, and there IS NO MERCY in the lake of fire. Read the book, pilgrim.
It seems to me, that if God is going to rescue everyone anyway, there would not,
on the surface, appear to be any reason to pursue the holiness that Jesus, Paul,
James, Peter, and other writers call upon us to do. In fact, it is one of the
reasons that Clement, that early universalist, claimed no one in the "unlearned"
classes should be told that hell is not a concrete place.
Hi Warden, believers are to be the holy people of God. I believe that the love of God, the love of Jesus His Son, should compel us to want to be holy. We are being saved according to His purposes, the body of Christ. We are supposed to be different, turning away from a life of sin. God is creating a special group of people who are supposed to show the work that He is doing in them. The body of Christ,we are to be the sons of God, joint heirs with Christ, being prepared to reign with Him, and so yes, we are to pursue holiness. We are the first fruits of His creatures, and the work of God should be evident in our lives. Romans 8
Yes, many of the church fathers/leaders taught hell to the masses, even though they did not believe it. What they believed was called the Doctrine of Reserve, I think, reserved for who they believed were the more mature. God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 07-30-2014 at 10:20 PM..
keep on hollering .... God would not have voiced urgency if there isn't truth about the condemnation that awaits those who rejects the Son in this life.
2 Corinthians 6:2 For he says, “In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you.”
I tell you, now is the time of God’s favor, now is the day of salvation.
So, are you sitting on the right or left?
Or, is there only standing room in the balcony?
Not a single person who claims God "hates" sin and sinners has claimed that He does not also love them--and loves them in spite of their sin. On the other hand, that understanding of "hate" by the holiness group is frequently understood to be a stamp of authority to "judge" other people--which I am completely opposed to.
But the point remains that the stance is the one Westboro Baptist uses, so how do you separate that hate from their condemnation?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden
It seems to me, that if God is going to rescue everyone anyway, there would not, on the surface, appear to be any reason to pursue the holiness that Jesus, Paul, James, Peter, and other writers call upon us to do. In fact, it is one of the reasons that Clement, that early universalist, claimed no one in the "unlearned" classes should be told that hell is not a concrete place.
It also justifies the mass murder by some individuals who have claimed to be Christian and knew they were going to heaven anyway. A strange situation that sin is justified in the minds of ignorant men, by the very doctrines preached to them. If we are going to be "saved" eventually anyway, or at the very least, by one time saying "I believe in Jesus," what authority does God have toward the masses? Pretty much none these days, because God loves them anyway.
I thought it had been explained that God is not going to save people from the consequence3s of their error and that salvation is not from "Hell," but from that horrible misapprehension of what we all need and which is found in the love of God. In fact, I am sure of it. How can you disregard that and bring up this old chestnut of a straw man, Warden?
But the point remains that the stance is the one Westboro Baptist uses, so how do you separate that hate from their condemnation?
I thought it had been explained that God is not going to save people from the consequence3s of their error and that salvation is not from "Hell," but from that horrible misapprehension of what we all need and which is found in the love of God. In fact, I am sure of it. How can you disregard that and bring up this old chestnut of a straw man, Warden?
It's no straw man. It's fact. And because one church used some of those concepts improperly doesn't mean the concepts are all wrong. When you review these videos, you see that difference between "universalism" and "once saved always saved" is just a single prayer--the latter quite useless however.
Both these false doctrines are portrayed for what they are--one in a real life video about a mass murderer and several suicides--all who committed their crimes because they had been assured God loved them and they were going to heaven. The second by a Baptist preacher who is taking on Baptist preachers for their apostasy toward God with false teaching.
These are the kinds of people universalism and OSAS are "justifying." It is against the other side of God's duality--His HOLINESS.
[youtube]
Last edited by Wardendresden; 07-30-2014 at 10:34 PM..
And there are those who believe in eternal hell or have no belief who commit mass murders, Warden. There have been people who committed suicide when they heard the preaching of eternal hell because they did not want to be with a God who would consign people to an eternal hell. God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 07-30-2014 at 10:39 PM..
The basic difference here is emphasis on the love of God vs. the holiness of God. Certainly God loves. But He is also holy. That was the entire Old Testament emphasis--God's holiness. Jesus did not come to destroy that law, He came to fulfill it. He did not come to replace it, He came explain it. After all, He was still a Jew--one of the original nation that God PREFERRED over all others.
It is interesting to note that for all the different "traditions" that Judaism supposedly stole from other religions, HOLINESS was unique to them. It was what separated the capricious gods of the heathens from the God of the Jews.
Unless you strike out the entire OT as did the heretic Marcion, one is left reconciling the OT holiness with the NT "loviness." That is one more of the dual pictures of God presented to us. And as you know, I am quite caught up in the duality of God. It's what makes God so hard to really pin down--which is exactly what most on this thread are trying to do--pin Him down to fitting into one category or another.
Not a single person who claims God "hates" sin and sinners has claimed that He does not also love them--and loves them in spite of their sin. On the other hand, that understanding of "hate" by the holiness group is frequently understood to be a stamp of authority to "judge" other people--which I am completely opposed to.
It seems to me, that if God is going to rescue everyone anyway, there would not, on the surface, appear to be any reason to pursue the holiness that Jesus, Paul, James, Peter, and other writers call upon us to do. In fact, it is one of the reasons that Clement, that early universalist, claimed no one in the "unlearned" classes should be told that hell is not a concrete place.
It also justifies the mass murder by some individuals who have claimed to be Christian and knew they were going to heaven anyway. A strange situation that sin is justified in the minds of ignorant men, by the very doctrines preached to them. If we are going to be "saved" eventually anyway, or at the very least, by one time saying "I believe in Jesus," what authority does God have toward the masses? Pretty much none these days, because God loves them anyway.
In other words, you believe that in order to be Holy - one must hate? Doesn't sound like the capricious gods of the heathens, have been cast out?
No, Warden, it is NOT a fact, because no universalist here holds the position you claim we must be propounding.
STOP
Actually THINK about it instead of reacting. This is not like you, Warden. You are acting like your back is to the wall. Defensive is not open minded.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
