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I've been doing some studying trying to understand better the mechanism of salvation. It's clear that apart from God's Grace no one is coming to the Son for Salvation. The tension has been understanding the mechanism of salvation. I've heard this analogy used before that's similar to what is quoted below.
"The doctrine of irresistible grace recognizes that the Bible describes natural man as “dead in his trespasses and sins” (Ephesians 2:1; Ephesians 2:5; Colossians 2:13), and, because man is spiritually dead, he must first be made alive or regenerated in order to understand and respond to the gospel message. A good illustration of this is seen in Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead. In John 11:43, it is recorded that Jesus told Lazarus to “come forth” and that Lazarus came forth out of the tomb. What had to happen before Lazarus—who had been dead for several days—would be able to respond to Jesus’ command? He had to be made alive because a dead man cannot hear or respond. The same is true spiritually. If we are dead in our sins, as the Bible clearly teaches, then before we can respond to the gospel message and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ we must first be made alive. "
I think there is a problem with using the analogy of Lazarus resurrection to represent resurrected spiritual life. While it's true Lazarus could not respond to Christ until He was resurrected, it is also true that he could not sin. In spiritual death, we can not respond to Christ but we can certainly still sin. So I don't believe one that is "dead in trespasses and sins" is the same thing as is demonstrated.
The opposition of irresistible Grace is what is called resistible grace, which I'm not entirely sure how it is generally represented is accurate either. There is the concept of "prevenient grace" which states that by God's Grace eyes and ears are opened for an individual to be capable of understanding the gospel message and receive Christ. The issue then becomes not a "decisive choice" toward Christ but probably in my studies more accurately described as a yielding and submission to Christ (as opposed to resisting the Holy Spirit Acts 7:51)
My problem with the whole thing is the following..
Is God calling Men to repentance that do not have the capability to repent? This is my biggest problem with this illustration.
I think it's clear the answer is no. The light of Christ was given to the Jews to accept until they started attributing His works to Satan.
John 5:40
And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Then the Lord started withdrawing His Grace in my understanding starting to speak in Parables.
All throughout the Ages God has been pleading Mankind to come to Him for Salvation.. but sadly the underlining theme is ..
"and ye would not"
Luke 13:34
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
Acts 7:51
Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
The Lord and Steven are both talking to the unbelieving Jews of that time. Just as it's the same in our time I think. I think it's clear that God is desiring Man to come but MAN is resisting.
I think there is a concept of accountability that is being missed in the presentation.
I've been doing some studying trying to understand better the mechanism of salvation. It's clear that apart from God's Grace no one is coming to the Son for Salvation. The tension has been understanding the mechanism of salvation. I've heard this analogy used before that's similar to what is quoted below.
"The doctrine of irresistible grace recognizes that the Bible describes natural man as “dead in his trespasses and sins” (Ephesians 2:1; Ephesians 2:5; Colossians 2:13), and, because man is spiritually dead, he must first be made alive or regenerated in order to understand and respond to the gospel message. A good illustration of this is seen in Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead. In John 11:43, it is recorded that Jesus told Lazarus to “come forth” and that Lazarus came forth out of the tomb. What had to happen before Lazarus—who had been dead for several days—would be able to respond to Jesus’ command? He had to be made alive because a dead man cannot hear or respond. The same is true spiritually. If we are dead in our sins, as the Bible clearly teaches, then before we can respond to the gospel message and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ we must first be made alive. "
I think there is a problem with using the analogy of Lazarus resurrection to represent resurrected spiritual life. While it's true Lazarus could not respond to Christ until He was resurrected, it is also true that he could not sin. In spiritual death, we can not respond to Christ but we can certainly still sin. So I don't believe one that is "dead in trespasses and sins" is the same thing as is demonstrated.
The opposition of irresistible Grace is what is called resistible grace, which I'm not entirely sure how it is generally represented is accurate either. There is the concept of "prevenient grace" which states that by God's Grace eyes and ears are opened for an individual to be capable of understanding the gospel message and receive Christ. The issue then becomes not a "decisive choice" toward Christ but probably in my studies more accurately described as a yielding and submission to Christ (as opposed to resisting the Holy Spirit Acts 7:51)
My problem with the whole thing is the following..
Is God calling Men to repentance that do not have the capability to repent? This is my biggest problem with this illustration.
I think it's clear the answer is no. The light of Christ was given to the Jews to accept until they started attributing His works to Satan.
John 5:40
And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Then the Lord started withdrawing His Grace in my understanding starting to speak in Parables.
All throughout the Ages God has been pleading Mankind to come to Him for Salvation.. but sadly the underlining theme is ..
"and ye would not"
Luke 13:34
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
Acts 7:51
Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
The Lord and Steven are both talking to the unbelieving Jews of that time. Just as it's the same in our time I think. I think it's clear that God is desiring Man to come but MAN is resisting.
I think there is a concept of accountability that is being missed in the presentation.
Thoughts..?
Faith is the ACCESS to Grace:
Rom_5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Now some say that Grace is favor. I dispute that and say that Grace is APPROVAL (more than favor). I believe God favors us all (after all He has it to rain on the just and the unjust). But APPROVAL is the difference between the goats and the sheep that are separated.
Now we are dead because we inherit death through original sin. Only the LIFE of Christ is a quickening Spirit. Our spirit is not a quickening spirit. So when we come into this world we are in need of having that quickening spirit to obtain further LIFE.
But that LIFE comes through APPROVAL (GRACE). And since Faith is the access to Grace we must have Faith to even get Grace. Furthermore Faith is a GIFT from God - thus making the Grace also a gift of God since Faith is the access to Grace. Therefore, it should come to be understood that God is by His calling condeming and saving at the same time for His own purposes by that calling. For should He desire to call you to be saved then you will no doubt be saved just as Jesus boasted about those that God gave Him that none were lost but he who was expected to be (Judas). Jesus knew there was no way the others could be lost because it was not purposed for them to be lost. The analysis shows that who God wants to save WILL be.
God is responsible for saved being saved and the unsaved not being saved. I believe that the unsaved will eventually all be saved in due time. But God still holds us all accountable while He is responsible since our conscience still bears witness to behavior.
The Bible is clear in that no one comes to the Christ unless the Father call him first. Suppose the Father never calls some?
The Bible is clear that of the many who are called, only a few are chosen. What then about those many that were called but were not chosen?
Where's the blame here?
UNLESS
There is a plan for salvation yet future!!
Well, if God is God, and the Ground of all Being, then He can pretty much decide whatever He wants. Men have been attempting to pass judgment on God for at least the last ten thousand years--that's why when they got tired of one, they invented another.
We are quite good at informing God about what is fair and what is not--and in trying to put the blame back on God. As Adam explained to God, "Lord, the woman YOU gave me tempted me to eat the fruit."
So suppose the Father never calls some? So what? Since He is the Ground for all Being (not a being Himself), He is the one who decides what is fair and what isn't.
And that is called submission to the WILL of the Father.
Well, if God is God, and the Ground of all Being, then He can pretty much decide whatever He wants. Men have been attempting to pass judgment on God for at least the last ten thousand years--that's why when they got tired of one, they invented another.
We are quite good at informing God about what is fair and what is not--and in trying to put the blame back on God. As Adam explained to God, "Lord, the woman YOU gave me tempted me to eat the fruit."
So suppose the Father never calls some? So what? Since He is the Ground for all Being (not a being Himself), He is the one who decides what is fair and what isn't.
And that is called submission to the WILL of the Father.
READ!! I didn't blame anyone at all, Friend? I stated God might just have a plan. Of course He is the ultimate rule, everyone is well aware of that. You posted nothing new. You only jumped the gun.
When I read the complete breakdown in communication here - it makes me wonder if people's minds are in bondage to demonic influence. How else to explain some of the strange chasm between people who believe in God and Jesus and yet cannot be reconciled with one another. It's astonishing.
The Bible is clear in that no one comes to the Christ unless the Father call him first. Suppose the Father never calls some?
The Bible is clear that of the many who are called, only a few are chosen. What then about those many that were called but were not chosen?
Where's the blame here?
UNLESS
There is a plan for salvation yet future!!
The few being chosen now are typed in the same manner that the few (Levites) were chosen in the Old Covenant. The few chosen then were chosen to be priest and administer in the atonement of the rest of the congregation. Under the New Covenant, those called in Christ now in this dispensation are being called to be Priest and will be instruments of the atonement for the rest of mankind since ALL are now part of the congregation because the Gentiles were grafted in.
The Bible is clear in that no one comes to the Christ unless the Father call him first. Suppose the Father never calls some?
The Bible is clear that of the many who are called, only a few are chosen. What then about those many that were called but were not chosen?
Where's the blame here?
UNLESS
There is a plan for salvation yet future!!
Yes, the calling is a general call to all mankind and individuals respond, which is why not all called are chosen. God WANTS all to respond but He knows all will not.
Kinda like the dragnet the Scriptures speak about that brought up lots of things and some were tossed back. God's call is like that, many are drawn to it, but are not chosen.
It might be likened to a person who sees someone and they are drawn to them. They still can turn away as it is a choice.
The calling does not remove the choice at all.
Now are those called an chosen the only people saved by God, or just some with a special Calling in heaven to be ... Kings and Priests?
The few being chosen now are typed in the same manner that the few (Levites) were chosen in the Old Covenant. The few chosen then were chosen to be priest and administer in the atonement of the rest of the congregation. Under the New Covenant, those called in Christ now in this dispensation are being called to be Priest and will be instruments of the atonement for the rest of mankind since ALL are now part of the congregation because the Gentiles were grafted in.
- Jesus told Mary, did I not say to you if you believed you would see The Glory Of God?
she said yes Lord at the last day. But Jesus meant in raising her brother from the dead then.
- Jesus didn't die FOR THEIR sins. Jesus died BECAUSE of their sins against Him.
The word 'for' can also be used as 'because'.
Jesus death was not for the salivation of ones spirit/souls to enter heaven.
But for the salvation of flesh to enter heaven.
John the Baptist and Jesus told them to
Repent and be Baptized for the remission of their sins.
THAT WAS GOOD-NEWS, NO MORE ANIMAL SACRIFICES.
Which eliminated The Priesthood as they knew of it and had obeyed it laws.
Jesus rose Lazarus from the dead to prove to them that their flesh would be raised too.
Remember, half of Israel didn't even believe there was such a thing as God resurrecting human flesh to live with Him.
"The Lamb OF GOD" was God's sacrificing His Son to prove it to them. Not for their souls but for their flesh.
"The Lamb OF God" was not Israel's sacrifice.
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