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So I've stayed away for a couple of days to contemplate further some of the posts I've read.
And I see that some have a problem accepting God as the Ground of all Being, but rather have placed MEN and WOMEN as the superior creation to whom God bows down.
There can be no other explanation for the inconsistency in the super-edit of the Bible. I do some editing myself, but my goal is always to bring different approaches into one reality. Hence, my belief that God is complex and not simple--as compared to almost a simpleton in doing everything for MEN and WOMEN.
Creation goes beyond what we see and hear.
Ephesians 6:12
So our struggle, whether we realize it or not goes into the "heavenly realms." And when it does that, sometimes things happen to "good" people for purposes that we cannot divine.
Some of you have castigated me for believing God may have taken my sister-in-law's life. A "loving God would never do that," you say. But what is the historical record of things occurring unjustly? Did God "allow" them to happen, or is He actually the one in control?
Consider the Scripture. All of you are at least familiar with the book of Job. A Godly man, Job is the centerpiece of a battle between God and Satan, the latter claiming that if God would deliver Job into his, Satan's, hands, then Job would eventually renounce God. God told Satan, "He is yours except you may not take his life."
His wife and children perish in a mighty wind. Fire and war take all his possessions. His health falls prey to boils. His friends keep telling him he has sinned against God and that is the reason for his suffering, but Job protests that he has been faithful in all things. As Job endures the accusations of his so called friends God remains silent in heaven. When God finally did speak, He did not reveal that His archenemy Satan had challenged Job’s motives for serving God. Neither did the Lord apologize for allowing Satan to test Job’s devotion to God. Instead, God talked about mountain goats giving birth, young lions on the hunt, and ravens in the nest. He cited the behavior of the ostrich, the strength of the ox, and the stride of the horse. He cited the wonders of the heavens, the marvels of the sea, and the cycle of the seasons. Job was left to conclude that if God had the power and wisdom to create this physical universe, there was reason to trust that same God in times of suffering.
Oh, an isolated case of our "savage" ancestors not understanding God.
No, rather it is a lesson that had been played out before, when a man of faith saw God acting in the evil that befell that man. Through the rejection, betrayal, enslavement, and wrongful imprisonment of a man named Joseph, we see someone who eventually was able to say to those who had hurt him, “You meant evil against me; but God meant it for good” (Genesis 50:20). When everything in us screams at the heavens for allowing suffering, we have reason to look at the eternal outcome and joy of Jesus who in His own suffering on an executioner’s cross cried, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” (Matthew 27:46)
Through the suffering of Job and early on by Joseph we see men who not only came to a deeper understanding of God but who also became a source of encouragement for people in every generation to follow.
Failure to see God at work in the life of a Christian through suffering is not a "superior" thought about God. Rather it is the apex of unbelief. It is glorifying us and our circumstances above the greater spiritual battles being fought that we cannot even guess about. And saying it doesn't happen is glorifying "our" superior Gnosticism over the knowledge and circumstances of men who saw things under the most difficult of times.
No one would choose pain and suffering. But when there is no choice, there remains some consolation. Natural disasters and times of crisis have a way of bringing us together. Hurricanes, fires, earthquakes, riots, illnesses, and accidents all have a way of bringing us to our senses. Suddenly we remember our own mortality and that people are more important than things. We remember that we do need one another and that, above all, we need God. Each time we discover God’s comfort in our own suffering, our capacity to help others is increased. This is what the apostle Paul had in mind when he wrote, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort those who are in any trouble, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God” (II Corinthians 1:3-4).
I lost a sister-in-law--and more troubles arose out of her death. But I also recognized that my sin has consequences--and the consequences of sin are always greater than we possibly can imagine. Remember the old Disney production of the Sorcerer's Apprentice? It was a cartoon about Mickey Mouse being the apprentice. The sorcerer told Mickey to go up the stairs and out into the courtyard to get buckets of water in which to fill a large tub in the basement. While Mickey was doing this the sorcerer went on an errand. Mickey, tired of going up and down the stairs saw the sorcerer's wand on the table, picked it up and waved it at the broom. The broom magically grew arms and legs and began to take the bucket up and down the stairs. Mickey, sitting in a rocking chair, dozed off. He awakes sometime later with water pouring over the side of the tub and hitting his feet. Immediately he jumps up and tries to use the wand to stop the broom, but he can't. So he picks up an axe and chops the broom in two. Instantly two brooms have buckets and are parading up and down the stairs. Mickey chops again and again--all the while more brooms are carrying water and filling the overflowing tub.
That is sin in our lives. We always think we can control it. We never plan on the consequences--but some of us try to adjudge the "fairness" of the consequences. "Why couldn't the sorcerer just do the right thing and magically take care of this problem? It's all his fault." Sin always multiplies and multiplies unless God puts a stop to it.
Of course in the end, the sorcerer does put things right--but it was a painful lesson for Mickey.
So when bad things happen to people is it always just the "consequences" of our sin? Or does God mean to do something greater than we imagined? Is that not what happened with Joseph? Did not Job become a man to be remembered as faithful through all the centuries?
We hate pain, especially in those we love. Yet without discomfort, the sick wouldn’t go to a doctor. Worn-out bodies would get no rest. Criminals wouldn’t fear the law. Children would laugh at correction. Without pangs of conscience, or the daily dissatisfaction of boredom, or the empty longing for significance, people who are only able to find satisfaction in an eternal Father would settle for far less.
So, please, the arguments put forward concerning the death of a woman I loved sound trite to me. I would much rather see a greater scheme in God's working in both of our lives. And it has left me striving for the rest of my days to be the best husband, father, and friend of everyone I know--and even with some I really DON'T know. It left me much more forgiving of my fellow sinners than I was before, and able to see them in circumstances in most cases not as villainous as my own---and practice kindness toward them.
To the man or woman with eyes of faith---God is alive and at work in everything--even those things some of you say "a loving God" just wouldn't do.
Who's lives? Yours, her's, her parents, her sisters or her children's?
What, was so loving about it?
Or, is it merely man's way of trying to understand:
"Why bad things, happen to good people?"
Hitler was NOT a child of God. God deals with His adopted heirs (believers in Christ Jesus--and doers of His words) differently from those who are the children of their father--Satan.
Hitler believed in God, he was RCC. who are you to say who is and is not a believer in Jesus Christ.
Paul believed in God and killed people in the name of God thinking to do God a service, and history is full of people who have done the same. Look at the atrocities that the RCC committed, all in the name of God. I suppose you would say those popes were not believers in Jesus Christ also.
was God behind all those killings, absolutely not, yet according to your understanding God was behind everything Hitler did. it simply is a crazy belief you hold to.
Who's lives? Yours, her's, her parents, her sister or her childrens? What, was so loving about it?
Or, is it merely man's way of trying to understand: "Why bad things, happen to good people?"
brother I feel for those who hold to this belief that God has some greater good behind all the evil in this world. it is no different then calling evil good.
brother I feel for those who hold to this belief that God has some greater good behind all the evil in this world. it is no different then calling evil good.
This greater good stuff needs to stop. Looking for God in evil is not the way you find God.
Look at it this way.
Hitler killed millions of Jews.
According to the greater good scenario God was behind what Hitler did.
Yet everyone would say what Hitler did was evil. But how can it be evil if God was behind it.
Should not those who believe in this greater good be praising God for what Hitler did, after all God was behind it for some mysterious greater good.
And as God was behind what Hitler did how can God then judge Hitler for all the killings.
That God is behind everything that happens in this world is pure lunacy.
People need to be reminded of the Lord prayer.
thy kingdom come, thy WILL be done on earth as it is in heaven.
The greater good scenario make this prayer redundant, for it hold that everything that happens in the earth is according to Gods WILL.
Brothers and sister Gods WILL is not being done on earth YET and it is because Gods will is not yet being done on earth that all these evil things befall mankind, not because God is behind all the evil.
Who's lives? Yours, her's, her parents, her sisters or her children's?
What, was so loving about it?
Or, is it merely man's way of trying to understand:
"Why bad things, happen to good people?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
brother I feel for those who hold to this belief that God has some greater good behind all the evil in this world. it is no different then calling evil good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
This greater good stuff needs to stop. Looking for God in evil is not the way you find God.
Look at it this way.
Hitler killed millions of Jews.
According to the greater good scenario God was behind what Hitler did.
Yet everyone would say what Hitler did was evil. But how can it be evil if God was behind it.
Should not those who believe in this greater good be praising God for what Hitler did, after all God was behind it for some mysterious greater good.
And as God was behind what Hitler did how can God then judge Hitler for all the killings. That God is behind everything that happens in this world is pure lunacy.
People need to be reminded of the Lord prayer.
thy kingdom come, thy WILL be done on earth as it is in heaven.
The greater good scenario make this prayer redundant, for it hold that everything that happens in the earth is according to Gods WILL.
Brothers and sister Gods WILL is not being done on earth YET and it is because Gods will is not yet being done on earth that all these evil things befall mankind, not because God is behind all the evil.
Amen brother's. I am afraid Warden and others are too far indoctrinated into the primitive War God mentality that plagued our ancestors under the veil of ignorance Christ came to lift. The God revealed by Christ is beyond their understanding because of the suffering in this world. Bart Erhman left his faith primarily because of it. Others seem to have embraced the lunacy in cognitive dissonance rejecting all contrary evidence and knowledge.
Amen brother's. I am afraid Warden and others are too far indoctrinated into the primitive War God mentality that plagued our ancestors under the veil of ignorance Christ came to lift. The God revealed by Christ is beyond their understanding because of the suffering in this world. Bart Erhman left his faith primarily because of it. Others seem to have embraced the lunacy in cognitive dissonance rejecting all contrary evidence and knowledge.
Amen, and that veil is only done away with Christ.
Jesus said my sheep know my voice and another they will not follow. People need to stop listening to anyone other then Christ Jesus for only He has the truth of who the Father is.
Amen brother's. I am afraid Warden and others are too far indoctrinated into the primitive War God mentality that plagued our ancestors under the veil of ignorance Christ came to lift. The God revealed by Christ is beyond their understanding because of the suffering in this world. Bart Erhman left his faith primarily because of it. Others seem to have embraced the lunacy in cognitive dissonance rejecting all contrary evidence and knowledge.
Your groups idea's and translations may not have the ability to guide a young family because nothing is explained.
Last edited by Sophronius; 08-06-2014 at 11:16 PM..
Your groups idea's and translations may not have the depth to guide a young family because nothing is explained.
Plus you guys talk in a condescending tone to people who u disagree with and think you can conquer, they are conquering tones, or you ignore things. Also, Difficult things are a property of life which God being the creator allows, so either the person can reflect and make resolutions which are supposed to be 'every day' for the believer, or not bother for a while, or whatever. A teacher wants his students, ( if its a matter of teaching) to enjoy the exploring. Nothing could be more example in the teachings of the Master and the lords prayer which answers to most things. Plus prayer is the debt of the spirituality, those who do not want to understand this should be run from.
Perhaps, you would like to supply more input, instead of critiquing?
Amen brother's. I am afraid Warden and others are too far indoctrinated into the primitive War God mentality that plagued our ancestors under the veil of ignorance Christ came to lift. The God revealed by Christ is beyond their understanding because of the suffering in this world. Bart Erhman left his faith primarily because of it. Others seem to have embraced the lunacy in cognitive dissonance rejecting all contrary evidence and knowledge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
Amen, and that veil is only done away with Christ.
Jesus said my sheep know my voice and another they will not follow. People need to stop listening to anyone other then Christ Jesus for only He has the truth of who the Father is.
Perversely the truly satanic twist that makes this moot are the "precepts and doctrines of men" that have proclaimed everything in the OT to be from Christ. It testifies ABOUT Christ . . . but none of it was FROM Christ. This is the twisted trick that ensnares those who fail to see that Christ lifted the veil of ignorance from the OT by revealing the True Nature of God. He did NOT endorse the barbaric beliefs about God in it. He reinterpreted it using the context of our agape loving God.
Perhaps, you would like to supply more input, instead of critiquing?
Oh hi and thanks but last time I explained , and I don't mind at all , but you all took off and did not reply.
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